I do want to add though, parental estrangement isn't new. Maybe legal divorce was lower back in the day, but people still left. Both my father's father, and my maternal grandmother's father left when they were small kids; in that era it nearly destroyed their families, they literally starved and froze.
I continue to come back to the fact that feminism - even in the 60s and 70s - wasn't about gaining money and power as much as it was gaining security that complete dependence on men couldn't provide. Women and children were just too vulnerable to the whims of men, to remain in traditional roles. It didn't matter that fewer men left back then, even if it was 1 in 10, it was still to high of a risk to take, especially when young children's lives were on the line.
Maybe community played a larger role back then. The catholic church certainly helped to raise my father, in the era before a government safety net, while at the same time berating his mother as responsible for the infidelity of her husband (he chose to leave and have another 7 kids with another woman) and calling my father a bastard, with literal nuns beating him. It sounds ancient but this was just in the 50s and 60s.
I don't like the extreme independence that feminism and self-help has wrought on our culture. At the same time, what are we supposed to do? Here you are, another woman, writing to primarily other women, about the issues. I see that both conservatives and progressives believe that some how, getting women on track with the right narrative is what is going to solve all this sadness. Instead, what I've come to realize is that women, as mothers or partners, can do damn all to control the worst instincts in men, either in a conservative or progressive framework.
None of this works unless men find an independent path forward to understand how to invest in families, relationships, and community. We can't do it for them.
It's always disheartening to see these types of posts upvoted. One of the egregious errors of contemporary (and 3rd wave) feminism has been indoctrinating women to believe that men are the cause of their problems (projection). This refusal / inability to look inward (accountability) is indeed harming the ability of men and women to bond.
In this essay, Freya seems to be, at times, grappling with the tension of individuality and communion, while sometimes lamenting that the former is difficult. It's understandable - men are more focused on individuality, women on communion. Having worked with and mentored young women for awhile now, the problem is that many of them tend to catastrophize, ruminate on, and TikTok the sh*t out of every detail. We know that those behaviors lead to depression. Throw in Gnoment's worldview, which reduces women to agency-less victims in a man's world, and you have a recipe for continued disaster.
If you've ever seen adult dogs discipline their young, it often manifests as: grab them by the ear/neck, shake the sh*t out of them, lesson learned, merrily move on. I feel like all humans, but especially young women, would do well to not fear self-criticism, but to do it in the frame of playful self-love, and once the lesson is learned, move on, and be better in the world.
We are in total agreement that "men (need to) find...path forward to understand how to invest in families, relationships, and community." In doing so they will relieve much of the burden of communion Freya seems to yearn for. Conversely, when women learn how to invest in a healthier individualism, men will be relieved of much of the burden of assuaging women's "difficulty trusting people, hypersensitivity to criticism, low self-esteem, (and) constant need for external validation."
Yes, I am addressing your attitude 100%. There is a conservative belief that women are stupid and have been swayed away from systems that worked for them toward feminism.
I don't believe people leave good systems that made them happy and secure, lured away by false idols.
The women in my family were left by men long before feminism was widespread in its current state. I don't buy the conservative belief that a large majority of families were whole before legal divorce became common.
Men need to find a path forward regardless of the path women are on. They need to stop pointing to women. If men are waiting for women to "invest in healthier individualism," we are again deciding that relationships and community depend on women holding the center.
If you were a woman, you would know you can't go five minutes in this world without someone critiquing you. If women seem to be shedding healthy feedback now, its probably because they've been asked to shoulder too much critique in the past - even from our mothers, our sisters, friends, endless op eds and advice columns.
Not to be mean and rude, but as a dude, if you want to help this cause, don't show up on women's blogs and say "yeah, women are wrong!" Maybe start your own blog helping men reflect and grow. Where are young men at? What are they struggling? What are their issues? I would read the crap out of that, because, quite frankly, contemporary men stump the hell out of me.
You epitomize that about which you complain. I am conservative and am surrounded by them nit ine of which believe wo.en are stupid. Where do you get this stuff?
I was just going to ask the same question, Lynne...I hear none of that stuff from Conservatives, against women! I am a former Leftist. I prefer being Conservative and Christian!
" Maybe start your own blog helping men reflect and grow. Where are young men at? What are they struggling? What are their issues? I would read the crap out of that, because, quite frankly, contemporary men stump the hell out of me."
My neighbor is a single dad with 3 boys. They are all addicted to the computer screen. He spends his free time (and he has a lot of it), not taking the boys out camping or to museums or anywhere, but holed up in his bedroom on screen. The boys are "homeschooled" - on screen. But he thinks he's a great dad because his kids are not in "horrible public schools" and he feeds them organic food at odd hours of the late night.
There is also tons of research affirming this in family court, child welfare, social services and Domestic abuse studies. Coersive control, mostly perpetrated by men, as a way to punish and dominate and control women has been criminalixed in the UK/GB and Austrailia. US has some case law on it. 7 states have laws.
Courts are using these same legal gaslighting tactics.
Our courts are absolutely part of the "industrial divorce complex" and patrirchial...and severely abusive to protective mom it is incomprehensible and reprehensibe. We are like 5% of cases right now. This will exponentially and explosivey grow rapidly in the next decade.. It is so bad, moms are left with nothing, lost everything ate figthing to survive are looking for safe communities with other MOMS to rest, heal, share burdens and resources and labor.
Catastrophic.
Global problem. See One Mom's Battle, National Safe Parents Organization.
There is a war being waged on moms and kids in the home..and husband/father is the perpetrator. House divided.
We live in an age where true masculinity is rare and masculine toxicity is prevalent (generations of todays men are soft, lacking nobility, honor etc. hedonists not willing to sacrifice for thier famikies and rather indulge in self pleasure (literally) sports obsessions, toys, wealth and sacrifice the treasury of thier families)
Women are meant to be helpers and complimentry prtners of men. (complimentarity)..but she boften ends up being mom and dad as he is out induging.
Fr. Ripperger has an excellent podcast out about Raising Boys., the failure of which causes soft or effeminite men....i.e. they no longer do the hard, right thing to develope character or virtue.
He goes so far to say that if a man cannot develop mastery over his passions, self discipline ordered to reason, self denial before marriage he will never be able to do it within marriage. His purpose of chastity is to save his wife from **himself*** of having given in to animalistic, base, desires. He lacks all requiste maturity to be authentically masculine. Like a child pursues pleasure after pleasure...not knowing how to do the hard things. When God asked us to be submissive (on mission for God) to our husbands...He did not mean to abuse/domination/control/servile. He intended a partnership..and service out of LOVE not fear or punisment. "Feminine Genius" where we can flourish in our natural gifts and attribites..that is almaos impossible to develop when she must act like a man, protect, defend, provide like a man, discipline like a man, work like a man..and she learned this in a harsh broken home to be self reliant, independent etc. ....then he want soft, warm, tender, receptive love and affection? When she calls him out into maturity, responsibikity and accountability he runs off with misstress and her family..like a child to "play" family elsewhere.....Insanity.
Women have failed..in lowering thier standards and bar so low to meet them at boyhhod...rather than raisising it and expecting men to rise into masculinity. Dang, even male birds in the wild work hard to meet his mate and strive to meet her wjere shes at. I believe we have failed as women as generations of families raised broken woinded kids...with our fathers as the only example as husband..and if pathologocal? abuse? addiction, violence and abandonement is all you know...its what is married. what was modeled as normal.
MEN need to understand that YOU are the TEMPLATE for your daughter's husband. WHO do YOU want her to be with.??
Dr. Doug Weiss Ph.D as CSAT therapist affirms this...pornified men are boys in men's bodies. They are so stunted un/underdeveloped in every aspect, stuck at the AGE of thier 1st trauma...that he literally has a video out called.."When You Marry a Boy Don't Expect a Man"--- the grave, catastrophic impact this has on the kids, thier development etc is catastrophic. Essentially, it is often a boy trying to play "dad" atrying to raise kids..I will tell you my early teen son is MUCH more mature than my 60 year old ex. His capacities are MUCH more developed.
Men are meant to be the protectors and leaders of thier home. Many have gravely failed this honorable calling...and it imapcts society every day in devastating ways.
Read the extended study The Legacy of Divorce, and then get back to us. Personally, I think we need matriarchies and walking marriages so that children don't feel abandoned or disrupted. Because the isolation of the 'family unit' never really worked and has only existed for a very short time.
Marriage harnesses male energies by putting them in charge; making them responsible for the outcomes.
Absent that, men would hunt, fish, (or the modern equivalent) rumble with the neighbors, do drugs, chase, girls, and swap lies about the same. Some of them _might_ play at a craft, mostly involving weapons.
If you want electric lights and running water and modern sanitation and reasonable safety in your home, you want marriage. Men won’t provide those things without it.
Men climb power poles in storms at night to put women’s lights back on. Most of men’s contributions to civilization are courtship display. What do you think will happen if it stops working?
Yes. It irritates me to no end, the feminist (and I'm female) grousing that men "don't do anything." Feminism teaches women not to appreciate all that men have done. The ingratitude is off the charts.
I suspect the effects on men are collateral damage from female intrasexual status competition.
Feminism always had a status competition component, but in the early days the push for equal rights in the public sphere was the main focus. When that was achieved, feminism got a boost in prestige. More women wanted into the movement. To justify continued activism they had to move the goal posts.
This is true of most organizations. The March of Dimes solved the Polio problem. Did they disband? Not hardly.
My mother was one of the founders of NOW. Do you understand what that was about? Equal pay for equal work. That's it. We finally can have credit cards, open a bank account, have a home loan, own property. But we still do not have "equal rights" of protection under the law. It can still be defined as man, not human.
Equal pay for equal work. Oh, and by the way, my mom believes in homemaking being a real job, motherhood being a real job. Because men do well when they are nurtured and healed, encouraged to rest and restore themselves. My ex got really sick after he abandoned me with the kids. Why? Because I took really good care of his health. He didn't appreciate the skills I used to make a family home for him and our children. I was at home with my daughter until she was 4 and I went back to college.
"If you want electric lights and running water and modern sanitation and reasonable safety in your home, you want marriage. Men won’t provide those things without it."
--- Men don't want electricc lights, running water and modern sanitation for themselves? Come on now. You sound like Paglia and her "without men women would still be living grass huts" schtick, but in the reverse.
I've lived decades without a woman (forget about multiple of them) telling me that "men are bears with furniture". I'm pretty sure that today, from you, is the first and last time I will hear it. Your idea that men would be happy living in squalor if not for women/marriage is not only dead wrong, it's an insult to men. And you don't even believe it. As evidenced below where you argue against it in your exchange with Vivian Keller when she extols the virtues of simple tribal life/subsistence living and you say the men "got bored" and started wars. Make up your mind.
I disagree that we need matriarchies. Just as many broken people in women as there are in men. Core issue is the centuries-old war between men and women. No simplistic answers....but the desperate need for men and women to find a place to get along. Mean men in "patriarchy" or mean women in "matriarchy", same difference. In order to have life itself, we need men and women to cooperate. VERY difficult to do, I know this well, based on my own disasters that I write about. What is a "walking marriage"?
Vivian, I do not personally want a matriarchy nor a patriarchy. Men and women need one another. I am fully aware of the social chaos of our times. My parents went through it in the Great Depression and WW2. My Boomer generation went through the loss of cohesian with social chaos and Vietnam (my parent’s marriage fell apart at the start of my teens) and Mom died overnight and an older brother died in Vietnam. No one system works all the time. Humans are gnarly creatures, self included…and the main thing tying all together is relationship with God.
Commenting a month late, but you mention the organic obvious truth that many are missing today. We need you (women). You need us. It's God's design. Granted both genders can screw that up mightily and often do. But we need to stop figuring out which gender deserves the most blame. All are stupendous creations of God, all are capable of failing to be the people He created us to be.
There are some interesting documentaries about it. They are kind of like most American marriages except the man goes to the woman’s house and if things fall apart he goes back to his maternal home without any penalties or painful custody lawsuits. And without as much heartbreak or hostility. Some couples are able to maintain long term pair bonds and live in the maternal home
" Some couples are able to maintain long term pair bonds and live in the maternal home"
--- Who's maternal home - his or her's? You're saying people, both men and women, should live with their moms their whole life and then if a man marries he moves into his wife's mom's home? In India they have the "joint-family" system where brides go to live with their husband in his parent's house, thus becoming like a maid and servant to her in-laws.
Anyway I fail to see how a man leaving his wife's home and going back to live with his mom (or both parents) will lessen the heartbreak or hostility in the seperation. Children would still be without their father in the home.
They are basically female-run families in a society where men make all decisions, men handle all disputes, but women run the home and inheritance passes from a man to his sister's son.
These societies are extremely violent, and none has ever been able to successfully maintain a state in over 1,000 years. They existed across Southeast Asia and Southern and Southwestern China, but now they are quite small, mostly in pockets across Southern China and Southeast Asia. The last states run this way were over-run by Muslims. They create brittle, unstable states. Their religions varied from animist to sort-of Buddhist, but most were replaced by strict Theravada Buddhist patriarchies or Muslim patriarchies.
These societies were all EXTREMELY unstable, and marked by violence. They survive in closed off, unwelcoming places that other groups never coveted. I think Ceodes wrote a really cool article about some Indonesian examples before he wrote the Indianized States of Southeast Asia.
So you think the Matriarchies of Southeast Asia are the answer? I think that would suit attractive men well, but how do you deal with the mass social stratification and the problem of underinvestment in children? These were crippling in matriarchies. The men who led these communities care little about their sister's sons (their heirs), and basically lived a life of warring, raping, pillaging and excess. There is a reason none of these societies thrived. They were easily subdued by patriarchal societies that were better at focusing men's energies into productive resources.
Remember that societies must find a way to channel those male energies. I am married to a Southeast Asian woman. I lived there, spent time as a monk, and i studied more of this history than your typical person, and I have never met anyone who actually knows what those societies looked like and wanted to live it. It is a world of rape, violence, extreme male behavior and a lack of intergenerational growth.
A reasonable future requires that we make some effort to develop males beyond the warrior/raider level. Monogamy is the characteristic that led to Western dominance. It is also a system that led to wealth, full bellies and safety. We would be fools to emulate a broken system. As it is, so much of our time and money is spent dealing with the men who were improperly raised in single mother homes. Having loser uncles around simply drags boys down even further.
Wow. Remember that South East Asia was devastated during WWII. Horrifically so. It can take generations for the damage to repair if it ever does. The loss of wealth is because it was stolen. Bad uncles also make bad husbands. And children raised with grandmothers are healthier and better educated. Extended families are richer than isolated ones.
Southeast Asian matriarchies collapsed centuries before WW2. That is like saying the Roman Empire collapsed because of pressure from Islam. With regards to extended families, yes, extended families are great. That said, in matriarchal societies in Southeast and East Asia, high status men had the means to live on their own. They did not live with their sister and their heirs. Only low status men did. The best modern example I can think of are poor Americans in public housing. The best role models are gone as soon as they are able. The adult men living with grandma are not the successful, high-status ones, only those who could not stand on their own.
There may be more successful examples of matriarchy outside of East and Southeast Asia. I am only familiar with the Asian examples I have experienced and studied. I can assure you that the Asian examples are not ones we would want (or that could survive anywhere but the least coveted spaces). These were not sustainable societies.
This is a translation of a concept of a few Tai (not Thai, but of a broader social group that would include Thai and Shan peoples) that were matrilineal and communal in nature. There are a few Sinicized remaining communities in the PRC, and very similar communities among Thai, Mon and a few other groups across rural Southeast Asia.
It was more popular social form long ago in the Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms of Southeast Asia, but the only ones with any staying power were quite different. The existing systems are all rural, in low-value land. They tend to bleed their best and brightest. Many people who have no idea how these societies work like to use them as an example because they have never experienced them. Muslim polygamous societies replaced many, or Theravada Budddhist communities that were more centralized with a stronger state and martial tradition. The more prominent examples became Muslim, although some of these, such as Champa, became Buddhist again after the Vietnamese genocide of the Cham (we now call Champa "Vietnam."
A good example today would be to state that we should emulate Commanche society in Texas, enslaving Mexicans and raiding towns for food and the necessities of life. The few matriarchal societies that still exist basically limp along, old ladies basically running a day care for all the people incapable of making it anywhere else. That said, the ones in China do not have it easy. No minority groups in Communist China do.
Frankly, I have no idea how so many people are aware of these communities, but have no understanding of them, or a total misconception as to how they work.
Ruminating on what you wish would have happened and not accepting what has happened is a dead end that causes most of people's problems including dis-ease.
Eckhart Tolle says, the reason people suffer is because they don't accept what is and hence they are always struggling. Accept what is and make peace with it.
Life happens only in this precious moment.
Louise Hay says, "Your power is in the present moment". So naturally if you are always living in the past, playing the victim, blaming others for their bad choices, you can't be very present or powerful.
This was such an important essay.
I would implore anyone reading it to get yourself a copy of Louise Hays book, You Can Heal Your Life. Louise was so wise. Her book has helped millions of people heal. It will help you see things differently and you can begin to heal. Do it now while you are young. I didn't find it until I was 45 and dis-ease was the catalyst for my awakening.
There is so much hope and beauty to be had in this Life living in the very precious present moment. ✌️❤️
We now have generations of toxic masulinity raised on porn. It DEFORMS men through and through until full recovery and it catastrophically destroys family and society. (See dr. Omar Miealla 13 Traumas and Secret Sexual Basement. It is henious. If you don't know you don't know.
There is an objective reality of divorce court being extremely gender biased, patriarchial...based on thousands of case studies and statistics. Pathological abusers use thia to entrap partner who leave..destrying thier lives. Crime against humanity. Constitutuonal violations...and the KIDs are weaponized to hirt the aurvivor parent, financially starve etc. messinf up tje next generations. See ACE & Saunder's atudy..tjes kids loae 20 years off thier lives and live a poor quality of life.
Ppl need to wake up. We are literally destroying our CIVILIZATION..and sacrificing our children like Molch and Jezebel in the Bible!
NO kids aren't "resilient" as this brave teen shows us! they are DYING of pain because us and our failures. tjeu STUFF it down and act like everything ia Ok, or take thier lives or numb with substances and sex. Teen suicide rates are the the roof --- literally dying of pain.
Reality is, men were called to be leaders and safe and sanctuary in the home... When they fail.she cannot be fully open, receptive. Fact of nature. When we live with domineering abusers we shrink or fight back.
Adam blamed Eve. A true mark of masculinity is accoutability for thier behavior. Porn/sex addiction deform personalitoes to narcissim/APD/psychopathy..so many of us wome. are living under this reign of hell and terror with these guys..it is becoming a global
pandemic.
Really f* up part is we marry men like our dads. Fact. If he beat us we marry that.If we were starved of love we marry that. Because THAT how "love" was instilled. There are generations of ppl who grew up with in famikies of heniois swxual abuse, addictions, abise, deprivation, neglect, abandonme t..and this cause nore wounded ppl.
We are COLLECTIVELY responsible for this, for healing and changing outcomes, making it a model to healthier relationahips.
"Reality is, men were called to be leaders and safe and sanctuary in the home"
--- By whom and why?
Reality is, grown adults don't need a leader in the home. The leader of a home's children is the parents, together. But one parent doesn't need the other one to lead her or him. They are equal partners working as a team.
As for all the other stuff about the sickness of porn, young women are backing off from dating, mating and marrying so they are not subject to this b.s. like older women have been and still might be.
I think what you’re referring to with fathers leaving generations before the 60s is still part of the general trend that is less specifically about marriage and community, and more about a ongoing hollowing out of Christianity that started well before WW1. It’s a gradual shift of worldview, where both husband and wife start to no longer see the sacrifices for each other as also ultimately for God. Even if just washing the dishes, taking the bins out etc. There is a cumulative effect of this that builds healthier stronger relationships. When marriages fail it’s rarely about compatibility or what people aren’t getting out of the relationship, it’s about unhealthy modes of being that are weak at handling life's challenges.
The 60s was of course when these general trends turned into a revolution that truly messed up future generations. As someone brought up in an atheist household (yes and one with divorce) who became a Catholic later in life, I see how much children of couples with faith get in terms of community, and solid ground! I also see people of my generation who have themselves moved away from the Church, but themselves retain all the psychological benefits that they were given by their parents.
These things can take several generations to disintegrate completely.
Both my grandparents and my father's family were incredibly religious.
My father's father, who left, was very catholic. His wife more so. I have aunts that regularly volunteer to sit with the communion bread during the week and continually pray over it - even over night.
And, yes the church did cloth, educate, and feed my father. It took care of his physical needs. But it completely psychologically destroyed my grandmother (even as she kept the faith) and my father and his siblings. No one ever went after my grandfather and made him accountable. Only God knows if he ever confessed in church and what number of hail Marys he was assigned. They trashed my grandmother and her children psychologically for years. It broke her heart, and she had to accept it because there was no other man to take care of her.
I'm glad the church you are a part of is much better than that.
Unbelievable these people who think that before the 60s, men never abandoned their families. Or that religious men never did that. It happened all the damn time! All through history. He might just disappear and youd never hear from him again. And @gnoment is exactly right, back before there was any safety net, that just meant the woman and kids would almost starve. They have no answer for this at all, other than to pretend it never happened.
I think the problem is more one of over reaction. Abandonment was the exception and not the rule, in our attempts to care for the exceptions we threw out the rule that was actually beneficial to the majority. Instead of making divorce and so called independence easier for everyone we should have focused on holding those who abandoned their families accountable, the social stigma of abandoning your family should have been much higher than the social stigma of being abandoned. In the aforementioned example a man who abandoned his wife and kids and then left them to the church to care for should have experienced church discipline of a most severe kind. He should have been persona non grata socially and professionally. His family should have been supported by the community, not blamed for their father’s failures. We went from a society where a woman leaving a legitimately physically abusive man was stigmatized and seen as bad to a society where leaving a marriage to find her own happiness is something to be celebrated, consequences to her children be damned. We over corrected and created a larger problem than our initial one. We can recognize that rotten marriages existed historically while also recognizing that the vast majority of marriages that come apart today are the result of reconcilable differences and that most kids would be better off if their parents put in the hard work to improve their marriages rather than abandon them.
Well I agree with this. I was totally devastated when my parents divorced. I think the problem is that prior to the very recent past, people could actually just "disappear" and you'd never be able to find them again. Head out to the western frontier, move to a different state and change your name...it was pretty easy. Social security numbers haven't even existed for a hundred years. Even today it can be very, very hard to track down a man and force him to pay child support of he just keeps moving to different states. So yes, better enforcement mechanisms would be good (and that's not always men...on very rare occasions it's the mother who is the abandoner).
One of the reasons many favored the shutting down of mental hospitals? Was because men would stash their wives there while running around with their younger mistresses. They had a clause that the person could not leave without permission of family. And divorce was very hard back then, until they had the easy divorces in Reno that started up in the 1920's or 30's.
I think you are conflating a couple issues. Yes men having wives committed was a problem (although again a statistically insignificant problem) however that was not what led to closing down mental institutions. The mental institutions were shut down in response to the terrible conditions in several of them which was made infamous by a number of investigative journalists. They were shut down officially in 1981, well after divorce laws had changed.
Ironically enough that is another example of us over reacting. We over reacted to the horrors of a few particular institutions and instead now our deeply mentally ill are serving long prison sentences or living homeless in filth and squalor on the streets, with another large percentage suffering and making their families suffer in homes that lack the ability to give them any sort of real support or treatment.
"We over corrected and created a larger problem than our initial one."
--- Did we over correct and create a larger problem than the initial one of abandonment? I'm not so sure abandonment (or abusive marriages) were all that rare.
Yes we did. 63% of black kids grow up in a single parent household. Do you really think that 60% of black marriages in 1950 ended in abandonment or were abusive?
Yes, men left wives throughout history. They went to war, they went to sea, they died doing dirty work, they became miners, etc. Absolutely. But what feminism did was encourage splitting, absolve men of responsibility, and now we have a REAL problem.
Religion has nothing to do with marriage stability. Children need communities that are stable. Men are no longer paid enough for women to be their caregiver and homemaker anymore. BTW, the WIFE used to hold the keys and the money belt in most healthy families. Men live longer and are healthier when cared for, and in matriarchies, they live with their mothers unless there is a really strong pair bond with the 'walking marriage'. But the expectation is knowing that things shatter.
My grandmother was VERY religious and was married 5 times, and only once a widow.
The younger people are when they marry the more likely they are to divorce. Want to know who doesn’t get divorced? College graduates have the highest marriage stability. And the higher the education level of the mother the higher education and success of her children. Also women who have children after the age of 35 live longer
"I think what you’re referring to with fathers leaving generations before the 60s is still part of the general trend that is less specifically about marriage and community, and more about a ongoing hollowing out of Christianity that started well before WW1"
--- Please! Churches and christian communities are world renknowned for abuse cover ups of all kind.
“Fatherhood” in its essence cannot exist with “reproductive rights” and the freedoms offered to women. In the end, marriage shouldn’t be so easy to get out of
Yep, but mostly we women adore the men in our lives, and we are willing to risk our lives and damage our bodies having children. Because, what women don't tell men, is that our bodies are permanently altered during delivery. We change, physically and mentally. My ex was awful about how I stopped being his best buddy. Forced me to go fishing with him three days after delivery, while I couldn't stop crying. I had 15 stitches down below and the midwife was furious. She said 6 weeks bedrest and he was to take care of me, not make me entertain him. So, for his 3 weeks of parental leave, he went off cutting wood, leaving me all alone all day and he became resentful and distant.
framing marriage as an institution someone would want to get out of but for whom it should be difficult to do so is 10/10 love love love!! really shows what normative discourse defines as heterosexuality
Everything that came out of women’s liberation. The “rights” of women are always against the natural order in a myriad of ways, but in its essence rights must be backed by violence - antithetical to womankind
Oppressed people will always strive to be free of oppression and oppressors will always strive to oppress them. If things were so healthy and happy prior to "women's liberation" nobody would have budged an inch for change. As far as birth control, male condoms were around long before female specific options. Even then, the pill was and still is mostly used by married couples to space children or women in committed long term relationships. The minority of people into casual hook ups just rely on male condoms.
As far as "backed by violence" - well sure, all laws are backed by state violence in one form or another. There are repurcussions to violating a country's laws.
Being married is not “oppression” — going through pregnancy is not “oppression” — going through puberty is not “oppression”
Having a family is an illiberal act. A family is not a democracy. Women being able to decide who gets to come in/out of the world circumvents the sovereignty of the father.
It was unpopular among most women at the time - not an organic movement.
So women are reliant upon men to use violence to protect their rights from other men using violence; ergo, women’s rights will be very short lived as politics is war by proxy and men are shifting away from liberal thought. It is hatred of men and fathers all the way down.
--- The family I was raised in pretty much functioned as one and we all turned out fine. We're all very close, very loving, respectful and peaceful.
" Women being able to decide who gets to come in/out of the world circumvents the sovereignty of the father."
--- Well nobody's sovereignty should be circumvented and when there's a couple both should have a say but the final decision rests with the carrier of life, there's no biological way around that. Much to the dismay of the online "manosphere" (are they still around?), the artificial wombs they dream of are a long way off, if they ever get invented and functional at all.
"So women are reliant upon men to use violence to protect their rights from other men using violence"
--- Everybody's reliant upon the state, the legal system, law enforcement to protect their rights from other people using violence.
"women’s rights will be very short lived"
--- No they won't.
"as politics is war by proxy and men are shifting away from liberal thought."
--- Some men are against people other than men (particularly men like them) having rights, but it's not most men. And women are half the population so it won't happen.
" It is hatred of men and fathers all the way down."
--- You're the only one here talking about taking people's rights away.
You think rapists should have the right to choose the mothers of their children? Sovereignty of the father?? No man should dupe or force a woman to have a child.
Marriage and family holds men back from their ambitions for enterprise and selfhood. Men have two types of children and legacy: those born of nature and those born of enterprise. It’s basic psychology. The Bible and all of western tradition speak to this.
Matriarchies are very healthy, where women stay in their mother's home, as do uncles and brothers and they have 'walking marriages'. Some are permanent, many are not, but the children are surrounded by people who love them. We don't have a culture that protects mothers and young children anymore. We used to have decent welfare programs for the first five years.
I find it fascinating how we condemn people who live sustainably and quietly in healthy communities while we destroy the planet. I think we need to reevaluate what it means to be civilized
We are nowhere near destroying our planet. As people get beyond worrying about their next meal, they start caring about their environment. Western Europe and the USA have cleaned up a great deal in my lifetime. It wasn’t _all_ exported to the developing world. The developing world is starting to clean up too. Our biggest risk is quitting too soon.
Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless. My ex wife left me and our kids to "find herself." Her mother left her father when she was 4. Her grandmother left her grandfather. And so on. Believe it or not, women are ALSO capable of being disloyal, callous, selfish, and just generally bad people. It's a part of the human condition that we used to be able to call out as bad without coming up with ways to justify it.
>None of this works unless men find an independent path forward to understand how to invest in families, relationships, and community.
"No political message has proven to be more welcome, in countries around the world, among peoples of every race and culture, than the message that your problems are not your fault, but the fault of others — and it is they who must change, not you."
Parental estrangement isn't new. What's new is telling adults who experienced parental estrangement as children that their parents did nothing wrong. It's gaslighting on an international scale.
Girls and boys probably feel abandoned because they have i DEI been abandoned. Fatherless households in black community is over 80%. The fathers abandoned their children and the mothers had every data point to believe it would happen before having sex. It to mention access to an overwhelming number of contraceptives. Add that they were then abandoned by their moms who chose a career in employment over one in motherhood. Add the TV and phone being used as substitutes for physical interaction. Yea, the kids were abandoned.
My parents divorced when I was 13. It remains the most devastating thing that has ever happened to me. I have never recovered from what my parents did. Both of my parents are dead, and I have forgiven them, but divorce for children is a primal loss. As an adult, I understand why they separated. As a child, my family and heart were broken and smashed. I am 59 years old. I have been happily married for 31 years. We have six thriving young adult children, and I still grieve the loss of my family of origin. My kids tease me when I ask if their girl/boyfriend's parents are divorced. I recently explained that I don't judge if they come from a divorced family. I expect that most, if not all, of my kids will marry someone from a broken family. But children from a divorced family carry a heavy burden, one that most teens and many young adults haven't even begun to unpack. It's an essential piece of their life to understand.
The good news is that it is possible to have a successful marriage even after coming from a broken family. I've seen it, and I've achieved it. I am a Christian and have received tremendous healing over the years from Jesus. It has also helped to read books that acknowledge the pain children of divorce experience. It is good that you are talking about it. It can be difficult to even talk about it - there is tremendous pressure on the kids to be "okay." Generally, despite the divorce, children love their parents and want to protect them from knowing the depth of the harm that occurred from their own hands. But the truth is - divorce sucks, and the children suffer because of it. My greatest joy and accomplishment is that my children will not come from a broken home. I've told our kids that happily married parents are the greatest gift we can give them. Now that they're out in the world, they see that is true.
I recommend two books: Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak by Leila Miller and The Children of Divorce by Andrew Root. God bless you.
Life is not perfect, people are not perfect and guess what? Parents are not perfect either. It is a celebration that from your heartache you could learn and to do better. And from every parents point of view we want our children to do better than us. However, I want my child to be resilient. No matter how hard life gets with or without me, I want to know that she can look after herself mentally, emotionally and physically. I don't want my daughter go through what I did to strengthen her they way it strengthen me. I know how cruel life can be but I do not want this for my child. However, like I said before life is not perfect and I am not perfect. Having the world, your parents and life let you down is not the end of the world. Your childern don't need a perfect life they need a life they can appreciate and grow from. You did not come from a perfect life but you managed to appreciate what you got and you grew from that. That resilience is more important to pass down to your chilldern then a promise that they will have perfectly happy parents. No family is perfect. There will be hard times. Teach your childern to be appreciative of what they have even in the hard times. No one can promise you happiness not your parents or the person you are married to. You all need work together and appreciate what you have together. Divorce is a cowards solution but it is a reality of an imperfect world of imperfect people that become imperfect parents. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." You did not die from a broken home or a broken heart. You did the total opposite, you lived! And that is what you truly give to your childern that is of the most greatest value to them.
I think the word "resilient" is asked to carry a lot of weight in these discussions. I grew up in a very broken, dysfunctional home raised by a step-father (my mother's third husband) who was physically and verbally abusive (to the point law enforcement was involved). My birth father walked out on my mom when my younger sister was diagnosed with cancer. He later petitioned the court to relinquish his parental rights and we saw him only a handful of times after he left. This was back in the early 70s. It was awful. Looking at me, people would probably say I was resilient. But it was all a facade. I was scared and insecure and felt awful about myself and always, always wondered why and how my dad could just leave. Yes, I "lived." No, I didn't "die." But I would have been very happy to be far less resilient than the choices made by my parents forced me to be at too young an age. Thankfully, I married an incredible man with whom I have five children and we've been married for 33 years.
We all NEED kids to be resilient because it assuages the consciences of people who make what more and more people recognize as the devastating choice to divorce. This does not mean that there aren't some situations in which divorce is the only safe remedy for one or both parties but in many, many cases, divorce results from one person deciding they "just can't do this anymore" which can mean anything from, "we've grown apart," to "I don't want to be responsible for taking care of kids," or "I need to find myself." Again, this list is not comprehensive, but it is representative of the many reasons given in the divorces taking place in my friend and acquaintance group. Heck, some people even say, "well, the kids are all old enough and I just want to be on my own now." No one is asking parents to be perfect, but marriage and especially parenthood, asks people to be sacrificial.
Even in chill circumstances, the parents who say "kids are resilient" tend to say them to reassure other people (and themselves) that the suboptimal behavior they are currently indulging in is okay.
Resilience is just being okay with your telomeres shortening at an increased rate.
Francis, when you have seen the court documents yourself and have had to appear in family court at the time of your father asking to relinquish parental rights, the father is doing a good job of villainizing himself. But maybe you can justify a man leaving his young family in a time of crisis. Of course my mother wasn't perfect, but to be honest, she didn't really badmouth my birth father at all except to say that she wished she could get a little more child support than $25/kid/month. I'm an adult. I get that life is complicated and people are broken. I'm only saying that kids are asked to bear the burden of adult decisions and it has an effect.
I do not know what you are trying to convince me of here? Is it that we must somehow force parents to sacrifice more and to be more resilient so their children don't have to be the ones to be resilient? Yes, most people will agree with that. However, like I said be fore life is not perfect. In an ideal world all parents would put their children's needs above their own. Their would not be any cancer, especially not in childern just maybe pedophiles would get cancer. And you and I wouldn't have had to go through the horrible things we had to go through when we were young.
No one would choose resilience over blissful ignorance on how cruel life can be. That would be madness. That is why parents can be selfish and also choose not to be resilient for their children. To overcome there pretty poo whoos and get on with life and their responsibilities to the ones who depend on them. Of course I wish I didn't have to go through what I went through. However, crying over how horrible divorce is or trying to make people perfect and to stop them doing things that I think are hurtful, harmful and selfish will leave me in pain and misery not the other way round. I will always be angry and disappointed in the ones I love because they do not meet my standards of kindness and reason. I want to ask you this,what are we to do about this divorce problem? Force people not to get a divorce make it illegal or do we teach and show resilience from our own experiences of having to be resilient? In time it will naturally create a stronger society and divorce will be less because there will be more resilient people. Crying about it constantly and blaming everyone for your mystery will only to teach and show others to do the same. We live by example it is why there is a divorce problem. People are living by the examples of others. Weakness encourages more weakness Strength encourages more strength. Let go of this hate towards divorce which gave your father the permission to run away. It is not needed anymore and it is a weakness not a strength. Your father was weak and showed you exactly what resilience did not look like, and you, inspite of the existence of divorce and the horrors it can bring, overcome it and did better. You learnt resilience from experiencing and seeing its opposite in another. This is the bitter sweet beauty of life. You have the control and capability of being resilient but you do not have the control and capability to make others perfect or make divorce disappear. Just let go of it, it's not needed and holding on to it won't change the past or better the future.
I'm not sure who you are trying to convince, either, with your response. And I don't need your unsolicited therapy advice. I'm good. I've processed my crisis-filled childhood. I certainly don't think contributing one comment to the discussion is "crying about it constantly" or "blaming everyone for your mystery" (I assume you mean misery). Similary, I don't think I argued for anyone to adopt a position of weakness or to succumb to self-pity. My only point is to be careful in opting out of responsibility by assuming kids have some underlying resilience unique to them. Some may. But a lot don't.
Those children who can't be resilient will grow up to be like your father, weak and will run from any difficulties in their life. It is a shame you have so little faith in childern and their capabilities in overcoming hard times. You have gained such wisdom in being resilient and overcoming your misfortunes. It is a shame you want to waste it on bubble wrapping your childern rather than passing that wisdom down.
This will be my final comment, but whoa, you take mind-reading, straw-manning and putting words into other people's mouths to a new level. Incredible, really.
‘If I have a daughter someday I don’t want to model for her a strong independent woman who doesn’t need a man; I want to model a strong woman who shows it’s okay to depend on someone, I feel like culturally that’s a much more important message now. It’s okay to take a risk to be with someone! To give up some of yourself to belong to something bigger!’
Absolutely wonderful article and fantastic sentiment. That is exactly what I am trying to do for my daughter.
Yes having pondered these same issues for years it’s almost as though we have to act as though we did have the supportive perfect father and brothers, and take those high expectations out into the world of how men and romantic partners will be. An almost impossible goal however. To act as though we had the role models of healthy interdependency we actually need. The independent woman narrative has been very damaging.
I mean it's not like there's never grounds for divorce/separation. Tabling the idea behind a set of conditions and timeframe would be ideal. Decades of addictions implies that the relationship has been fraught for a while, and if all other interventions have already been exhausted, then divorce/separation might be a better option than circling the drain (one engaged and supporting parent is still better than one engaged parent and one despondent parent).
"Tabling the idea behind a set of conditions and timeframe would be ideal."
--- What sort of "timeframe" and "set of conditions" are you thinking of.
Also to be noted, if people can't divorce for reasons they want to, they won't necessarily stay together. Marriages will dissolve by other means, they just won't have a formal divorce paper.
For example, with something like excess drinking, you know the point where you can instantly smell it, being able to have an intervention and then coming up with a three-month plan for recovery/rehabilitation with long-term goals and weekly targets and meetings for accountability. Obviously this can vary immensely by the type of person and their particular needs, but it's the principles of the approach that are of note here. Conflict resolution is an essential part to keeping almost any relationship going strong. Smooth sailing might be great and all during the honeymoon period, but the good weather never lasts, so being prepared to switch to the storm sails when the waters start to get rough will help you to weather the storm together, lest the waves tear you asunder.
And yes, i agree that often relationships die before the marriage certificate is ever annulled, which is I phrased it with "/separation".
I'm still shocked by how long it can sometimes take for a divorce to go through here in USA. Sometimes several years. If divorce is made anymore difficult or prolonged more than it already is, we will see even less marriages starting than we already do now. I predict more people will just opt for living together indefinitely, maybe have children together but ditch the idea of a legal marriage. Amongst those that do marry we will probably see an uptick in alternative arrangements like polyamorous "open marriage" and the like.
Curtailing divorce and access to reproductive rights will see marriage and birthrates plummet at an even faster rate than we are already seeing now.
I mean the lack of relationships amongst newer generations is certainly caused not by a lack of desire to be in a relationship, rather by the inability to close the gap between one's current situation and their goals. Like it's not that there isn't a sexual appetite amongst younger generations, it's quite the opposite, in fact their are arguably too many competitors for people's sexual attention now, especially for the youth. Ubiquitous habits amongst Gen Y and Z (and a bit of Alpha), such as online pornography consumption, something that has been tracking upwards for a while, are now starting to be supplemented with AI via the Replikas of the world. Even if it's all snake oil in the end, AI companionship does compete against human companionship. Suffice to say that more people are checking out of the dating market in favor of the increasingly flexible simulacrum.
In the same way you wouldn't expect a poor return policy to significantly affect a buyer's decision to purchase the product, you certainly wouldn't cite it as being a cause of buyer's remorse. Also, I am very skeptical about there being an noted increase in successful alternative arrangements, such as polyamorous relationships, in the future given how people are clearly still working out how to solve the two-body problem, never mind that the three-body problem, or higher orders, are far more complex to solve for, and for which a general solution doesn't even exist in physics, never mind human relationships that have far more than three variables.
I was raised by a man whose child I was not. I was adopted: my mother already had adopted me when my dad came along. He loved me as his own and I loved him totally in return. It’s been 15 years now since he died and it still hurts. But it’s okay. It’s just living.
A funny story I overheard at a mother's group, was a woman was talking about her husband. He was an avid skier, outdoorsy, and very different from his book worm father. After his father passed, his mother told him the truth, that his real father was conceived right before her wedding, on a skiing trip with a ski instructor/ athlete. She never regretted marrying her husband and he suspected but always loved his son who was so different from himself. She later introduced him to his real father. From what I understand, before dna testing, over 30% were step outs.
The father who raised him WAS his “real” father. Try using the word “biological” father instead. (Speaking as a mother of two adopted daughters. I AM their mother.)
You should be more skeptical/do some work on your BS detector. That 30% stat is false.
From what I’ve read, there was a study with early DNA testing that showed the rate varied widely by social class, with roughly 1% and 3% for upper and middle class couples. The 30% was for the lower class sample. No idea of the details/conditions of the study, how representative the sample, or whether it was taken from eg a time of war when men were away for years.
It is hard on the children when they are in a single-family unit that is severed and then patched together with spare parts of humans who are scarred, scared, and are trying to figure each other out. That is why I now believe in extended families as long as there isn't abuse. My children were adopted by my husband, and though he grieved his loss of contact with some of his from his prior marriage, he embraced mine with compassion. (I was 19 years younger, and we met in college while getting teaching credentials) Just as his children embraced their mother's new husband. But the legacy of divorce is profound on children. There is an excellent study with that name, following people throughout their lives after parents' divorce. And then when you compound it over generations, its PTSD on steroids, basically.
More to your point, a lot of single moms should absolutely model independence lol. My FIL's mom was a 60s feminist. Was NEVER without a man! And a good percentage of those men were horrible to her kids. One of those men died recently at about a 100, and my 70-year-old FIL broke down in tears at the memory of how horrible he was. This shit stays with you.
Maybe it's okay to want to depend on a man, but a revolving door of selfish men who are mean to your kids is neither good for you and nor for your kids. At that point, being single and independent isn't a fear reaction, it's quite literally an informed decision on what is best moving forward. Would it be nice to have a good man in your life? Probably, but it's risky to keep seeking this out when you are trying to create a safe stable environment for your children.
What we need are groups of strong men to force this type of man to behave correctly and hold him accountable when he does not. Honor, loyalty and virtue must be taught at an early age.
What a phenomenal piece, Freya. You have put into words what I have been feeling for 18 years. I’m 32 now, and my dad left when I was 14. As far as he is concerned, the fact that I wasn’t resilient enough to ‘bounce back’ from it meant that something is wrong with me (not him, or the situation).
The more I think about it, the more I feel that the Boomers are the real “me” generation. They were the children of the 60s and 70s who tore down everything that represented stability in society, and now they blame Millennials and Gen-Z for not being able to cope living in a world built by narcissists.
I was a waitress in my late teens and early twenties, and I remember noticing that it was always the boomers who would throw a public tantrum if someone made a mistake with their order. The older generation would be too polite or embarrassed to complain at all, whereas Gen X and Y would still complain, but they’d be sheepish about it and still relatively polite in their tone. I think you can tell a lot about peoples’ character when you’re in a “low” social position. I just remember observing again and again that the rude horrible customers always came from the same generation. There was something about their sense of entitlement that always bothered me. Only now am I realising that this must be connected to the counter-culture stuff in the 60s and 70s… there was a huge emphasis on extreme hedonism, which, in my view can only lead to narcissism.
I would hasten to add that not all Boomers are abusers, and not all Millenials/Gen Z are innocent doves. However, as a general trend, I think we can safely say that we are now reaping the harvest of what was sown by the counter-culture revolution: hedonims —→ narccisim.
I wonder why? There were some good values that came out of the young people in the '60s and early '70s like peace and love. No I'm not being snarky here. For real. Boomers are some of the most loving and open minded people I meet these days.
Hold on there, Sarah! Much of the '60s and early '70s was about peace and love. Really, I'm not trying to be sardonic or corny here. There were some good values that came out of it. I am surprised to hear boomers were the rudest customers.
I’ve shared similar observations and experiences, but now older gen x are the “boomers” in this regard. Still a different vibe of entitlement than older boomers though. More tight lipped passive aggression than public yelling.
I found a philosophy of life that makes me very traditional and i understand the value of all the things Fraya writes so powerfully about being missing.
But many of of my generation , especially the younger boomers , entered a life of abandonment that has left latrer generations abandoned!
An extremly unpopular thing to say but i will say it anyway is , the place feminism has played in all of this.
The understanding of motherhood has become so diminished, that even the basics are being forgotten.
It breaks my heart. To be a mother is the most important job in the entire world.
I implore your generation to embrace it , to rediscover what it is to love unconditionally and selflessly.
Become the new pioneers of family and mend the world! ❤
"It breaks my heart. To be a mother is the most important job in the entire world."
--- Once one has children, parenting those children well is of course the most important job for those people, for parents. But for people who don't have kids, I don't know that tell them that it's the most important job in the world is the way to go. I mean, they will of course appreciate if their parents did a good job, and will probably be pissed if they didn't, but for them - they may not be interested in the job.
Moreover we can see which countries value parenting by their government policies towards parents such as parental leave and all that.
"To be a mother is the most important job in the entire world".
Is the "entire world" rewarding motherhood in practical ways?
How did you get grandkids without kids? Anyway, with the cost of living and housing and everything being what it is today, I think we are going to see only certain socio-economic classes of people having them - the rich and super rich. They won't have many. But unless something gives with the world's economic system - the middle and lower classes won't be having.
Sarah, Boomer here and what you say is not entirely true. Boomers made plenty of mistakes...we were in uncharted territory. I do NOT blame Millenials nor Gen-Z. Each and every single generation has their crosses to bear. Social stability was already unraveling before the Boomers...from the 1920s and before. No one generation is to blame, look at human history. I write in my own Stack, about the huge mistakes I myself made in the sexual revolution ( a more chaotic thing there never was) and I place the blame on myself, not on those coming up behind me.
I'll check out your Stack. I might have a romanticized version of the '60s in my head. I love the music, aesthetics, vibes and yes, the peace and love values.
Academic Agent coined it and talks about it on his YT channel. He defines it as 'the episteme under which we have been suffering since 1945. In this episteme the summum bonum, the ultimate moral good, is something like individual self-expression unmoored from societal constraint. '
If you have time, Academic Agent's YT channel covers a lot of history that might fill in the blanks for you. I am a terrible explainer, so won't even try.
My parents divorced when I was ten and it was awful. In my teens I found religion. I decided my life would be different than my parents' lives. I was going to be romantic, not career-obsessed. I was going to get married and have a big family and be a stay-at-home mom. And I did. At 20 I married a religious boy. People said we were too young, but we had so much fun together, being poor and young together. We had a bunch of kids. We created a beautiful home. I love my life. I feel healed.
As a grandmother to both male and female Gen Zs, I was drawn to your writing awhile back. I want to understand as much as I can about the world they function in. Your perspectives resonate. My grandson is 24 and he really wants to meet a woman with whom he can build a life, but he's finding it hard to find any who want any kind if commitment. He says that so many are superficial and only want to party, which is not his thing. I have shared your article with him. It may help him understand a bit better. Freya, Thank you for offering your voice and your wisdom to our world.🙏
Your grandson in only 24 and it is rare for someone that young to be looking to marry in the west. His target demographic will be women between the ages of 20-26, right? Most women (and men) here are not looking to marry at those ages. And some women in their early to mid 20's don't desire men their own age but a little bit older. Probably if he waits until late 20s to early 30s he'll have better luck.
I'll never forget when my dad apologized to me for "breaking up our family" when my parents got divorced when I was a pre-teen. Back then, I didn't really think anything of it because I didn't think he did (and still don't), but now that I'm older (and actually in a committed relationship) I hear what he was saying; I hear the guilt, the shame, and the disappointment he had in himself for our family unit crumbling. While I never expected an apology, I have to say I love him all the more for it.
Just a simple, heartfelt apology does wonders, it really does. Great piece, Freya.
You are a very rare person to actually receive an apology. It’s highly unusual.
Refusing to acknowledge that either parent did anything wrong and, even if they did, the children aren’t entitled to have any feelings about it, is the typical default response with most divorced parents…particularly divorced baby boomers.
This is solid. The damage to millions of people from seeing only broken relationships, then replicating that experience as young adults, is catastrophic, and potentially civilization-destroying. The instinctive response of not touching the hot stove and getting burned again is rational and understandable.
In human terms, I see no solution. It will require miracles. So, I will pray for them.
I think this “packaging” up of different generations can be divisive and unhelpful. Marriage and dependency and accepting the need of someone else has always been fraught with risk through every generation, every century. It’s the nature of life, certainly the nature of love. There has never been a time when family was totally secure. As other comments have said, in other generations you could be stuck in an abusive marriage and have no way out. That’s still the case in parts of the world and in certain religions (which can give a sense of belonging but can also create a prison of rules). We love a spouse and they might leave or die, we have a child and nature means they leave and may die. There is joy and also pain. Read Kahlil Gibran. The history of the world has been one of war- my grandparents and parents but most families through the centuries would have been torn apart by war and loss. Children orphaned, step-parents introduced not from divorce but from war. And those generations knew nothing of the “inner child” or narcissism or attachment theories. To fall in love and give love is a risk but even if you lose you will have experienced something deeper than you will experience staying on the outside or making fear rule your responses. You’re a great writer, feel the fear and do it anyway. You have more choices than the majority of women through history. Share with your generation the ways to accept uncertainty and choose to make relationships, make communities, find your own sense of belonging. It’s never been easy and you may be rejected but it’s worth it. I wish you heartfelt luck and courage that you and your peers will find a way to create love and community and the moments of happiness that you seek.
I love your incisive voice Freya! I have started recommending your Substack to parents who are looking for resources for their teen girls in navigating social media/peer pressure/relationships etc. It would be wonderful if your upcoming book came along with a guided family/group discussion appendix. The way that you approach the challenges the current generation faces is unique, and I have not come across a book or resource that speaks more clearly on these issues. Thanks for your splendid work!
I’m an adult child of divorce and I feel like only now, our pain is being acknowledged. Kids are not resilient and divorce is an evil, regardless of the circumstances of the parental separation.
Read The Legacy of Divorce. It's a longitudinal study of the children of divorce. I think the family unit idea is too small for healthy child rearing. We used to have extended families living together.
Good one. Truth is though that divorce IS evil, and so are you for pushing for it and attacking what holds humanity together. It is through marriage that a family is built, through family a neighbourhood is built, through those that villages are built, from there cities, and from there nations. You seek to burn the most beautiful thing men and women can build together.
In the eternal words of our Lord; Get behind us Satan.
Your belief system is one that gets people killed. No family exists without the support of their community. I know this personally as we are under assault because I used to be a beautiful woman married to a man 29 years older than me who adopted my children after their father abandoned us. Yes, I am stalked and harassed by people like you who judge without mercy or compassion. I stay with my kindly husband even as we are being attacked
Life is not perfect we are all human that make mistakes. If you keep blaming others for your problems then they will never get fixed. "You may not have caused what hurt you but you are responsible for your healing"
Getting angry, and crying about bad parents will not change a thing.
Thank you Freya for putting out the right message. What's done is done. No changing that fact.
I agree with almost everything, except that getting angry and crying are normal, human reactions, and that no human being should deprive themselves, especially when it comes to crying.
Have a good cry and then move on. Go to a hill top and have good scream and then move on. But, make your screams and cries what you wake up for and you live for, then you get no sympathy from me. The misery you choose to live is for you and you alone don't bring others into it. This is coming from a person who made her anger and cries the reason to make all the ones who love her live in mystery with her. It did me no good, it did my family no good. I wasted a lot time being angry and miserable. It is only okay to cry when you know when to stop. It is only okay to be angry if it inspires you to do better. It is human but it is also inhumane to allow people to just cry and hate when it does no good and they do not know how to stop.
Wonderful piece Freya. As a father of three teenagers, I'm fascinated how cautious this generation is about relationships - almost none of my kids' friends have a boyfriend or girlfriend. Quite a relief in some ways as a parent, but you wonder where it will end. I cycled the other day past a couple of kids kissing at a bus stop and thought it was years since I'd seen that.
I believe they are afraid of being burned/outed for doing Anything. ..it will be posted on social media. Ask a girl out and she makes fun of you on tick tok..so the girls are lonely posting and the boys bury themselves in gaming…
Brilliant and searing. And I hate to say it, but what Gen Z is experiencing now started decades ago. I'm 62, and in my childhood watched TV shows of "That Girl" and "Julia," single women striking out on their own, while my father was in and out of jail and my mother in and out of the hospital. In my college years, the ubiquitous feminist slogan was "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." The big feminist question was, "Is it ok to sleep with our oppressor?" And now here I am, and yes, I do love and soothe and reparent myself, and I coach other women to do the same; and I do believe there is a place for that foundation within oneself as a basis for intimacy with others. But the cost of the systematic destruction of the family has indeed been great. Keep up the good work, Freya!
You are absolutely spot on with this, Freya. I have worked with so many young women for whom this is literally true, line by line, as you have written this. It is the tragedy we can't talk about, and we are "being kind" by blaming everyone and everything else. My father came from a broken home and had a deeply unhappy childhood. He was convinced there was a better way - and I am the lucky beneficiary. The tide can turn, if we make enough waves - and you are doing just that. Thank you.
My wife and I have (and continue to) overcome this very thing with the Lord Jesus Christ.
He has brought true, permanent healing to these deep places of abandonment and trauma through His Holy Spirit and a sober look at how the dysfunctional ways in which we responded to the trauma inflicted upon us were actually more damaging than the trauma itself.
Besides the Bible, this book has been life changing for us: Transforming the Inner Man by John + Paula Sanford.
New life is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Lord loves you, so much, and He is truly a Good Father who will never abandon you.
I think all of this is true.
I do want to add though, parental estrangement isn't new. Maybe legal divorce was lower back in the day, but people still left. Both my father's father, and my maternal grandmother's father left when they were small kids; in that era it nearly destroyed their families, they literally starved and froze.
I continue to come back to the fact that feminism - even in the 60s and 70s - wasn't about gaining money and power as much as it was gaining security that complete dependence on men couldn't provide. Women and children were just too vulnerable to the whims of men, to remain in traditional roles. It didn't matter that fewer men left back then, even if it was 1 in 10, it was still to high of a risk to take, especially when young children's lives were on the line.
Maybe community played a larger role back then. The catholic church certainly helped to raise my father, in the era before a government safety net, while at the same time berating his mother as responsible for the infidelity of her husband (he chose to leave and have another 7 kids with another woman) and calling my father a bastard, with literal nuns beating him. It sounds ancient but this was just in the 50s and 60s.
I don't like the extreme independence that feminism and self-help has wrought on our culture. At the same time, what are we supposed to do? Here you are, another woman, writing to primarily other women, about the issues. I see that both conservatives and progressives believe that some how, getting women on track with the right narrative is what is going to solve all this sadness. Instead, what I've come to realize is that women, as mothers or partners, can do damn all to control the worst instincts in men, either in a conservative or progressive framework.
None of this works unless men find an independent path forward to understand how to invest in families, relationships, and community. We can't do it for them.
It's always disheartening to see these types of posts upvoted. One of the egregious errors of contemporary (and 3rd wave) feminism has been indoctrinating women to believe that men are the cause of their problems (projection). This refusal / inability to look inward (accountability) is indeed harming the ability of men and women to bond.
In this essay, Freya seems to be, at times, grappling with the tension of individuality and communion, while sometimes lamenting that the former is difficult. It's understandable - men are more focused on individuality, women on communion. Having worked with and mentored young women for awhile now, the problem is that many of them tend to catastrophize, ruminate on, and TikTok the sh*t out of every detail. We know that those behaviors lead to depression. Throw in Gnoment's worldview, which reduces women to agency-less victims in a man's world, and you have a recipe for continued disaster.
If you've ever seen adult dogs discipline their young, it often manifests as: grab them by the ear/neck, shake the sh*t out of them, lesson learned, merrily move on. I feel like all humans, but especially young women, would do well to not fear self-criticism, but to do it in the frame of playful self-love, and once the lesson is learned, move on, and be better in the world.
We are in total agreement that "men (need to) find...path forward to understand how to invest in families, relationships, and community." In doing so they will relieve much of the burden of communion Freya seems to yearn for. Conversely, when women learn how to invest in a healthier individualism, men will be relieved of much of the burden of assuaging women's "difficulty trusting people, hypersensitivity to criticism, low self-esteem, (and) constant need for external validation."
(Nice work, Freya.)
Yes, I am addressing your attitude 100%. There is a conservative belief that women are stupid and have been swayed away from systems that worked for them toward feminism.
I don't believe people leave good systems that made them happy and secure, lured away by false idols.
The women in my family were left by men long before feminism was widespread in its current state. I don't buy the conservative belief that a large majority of families were whole before legal divorce became common.
Men need to find a path forward regardless of the path women are on. They need to stop pointing to women. If men are waiting for women to "invest in healthier individualism," we are again deciding that relationships and community depend on women holding the center.
If you were a woman, you would know you can't go five minutes in this world without someone critiquing you. If women seem to be shedding healthy feedback now, its probably because they've been asked to shoulder too much critique in the past - even from our mothers, our sisters, friends, endless op eds and advice columns.
Not to be mean and rude, but as a dude, if you want to help this cause, don't show up on women's blogs and say "yeah, women are wrong!" Maybe start your own blog helping men reflect and grow. Where are young men at? What are they struggling? What are their issues? I would read the crap out of that, because, quite frankly, contemporary men stump the hell out of me.
You epitomize that about which you complain. I am conservative and am surrounded by them nit ine of which believe wo.en are stupid. Where do you get this stuff?
I was just going to ask the same question, Lynne...I hear none of that stuff from Conservatives, against women! I am a former Leftist. I prefer being Conservative and Christian!
I agree with everything you wrote.
" Maybe start your own blog helping men reflect and grow. Where are young men at? What are they struggling? What are their issues? I would read the crap out of that, because, quite frankly, contemporary men stump the hell out of me."
Here's one: https://ofboysandmen.substack.com/
Google:
"fatherlessness crisis"
US has the highest rate, globally, of fatherless homes.
US is also the #1 consumer of p*orn!! GLOBALLY.
. NO ACCIDENT or COINCIDENCE.
I assert casusation.
https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/20-countries-that-watch-the-most-porn-in-2023-1168656/4/
Affirmed by P*ornHub.
US also has the highest p*orn addiction rate.
My neighbor is a single dad with 3 boys. They are all addicted to the computer screen. He spends his free time (and he has a lot of it), not taking the boys out camping or to museums or anywhere, but holed up in his bedroom on screen. The boys are "homeschooled" - on screen. But he thinks he's a great dad because his kids are not in "horrible public schools" and he feeds them organic food at odd hours of the late night.
There is also tons of research affirming this in family court, child welfare, social services and Domestic abuse studies. Coersive control, mostly perpetrated by men, as a way to punish and dominate and control women has been criminalixed in the UK/GB and Austrailia. US has some case law on it. 7 states have laws.
Courts are using these same legal gaslighting tactics.
Our courts are absolutely part of the "industrial divorce complex" and patrirchial...and severely abusive to protective mom it is incomprehensible and reprehensibe. We are like 5% of cases right now. This will exponentially and explosivey grow rapidly in the next decade.. It is so bad, moms are left with nothing, lost everything ate figthing to survive are looking for safe communities with other MOMS to rest, heal, share burdens and resources and labor.
Catastrophic.
Global problem. See One Mom's Battle, National Safe Parents Organization.
There is a war being waged on moms and kids in the home..and husband/father is the perpetrator. House divided.
We live in an age where true masculinity is rare and masculine toxicity is prevalent (generations of todays men are soft, lacking nobility, honor etc. hedonists not willing to sacrifice for thier famikies and rather indulge in self pleasure (literally) sports obsessions, toys, wealth and sacrifice the treasury of thier families)
Women are meant to be helpers and complimentry prtners of men. (complimentarity)..but she boften ends up being mom and dad as he is out induging.
Fr. Ripperger has an excellent podcast out about Raising Boys., the failure of which causes soft or effeminite men....i.e. they no longer do the hard, right thing to develope character or virtue.
He goes so far to say that if a man cannot develop mastery over his passions, self discipline ordered to reason, self denial before marriage he will never be able to do it within marriage. His purpose of chastity is to save his wife from **himself*** of having given in to animalistic, base, desires. He lacks all requiste maturity to be authentically masculine. Like a child pursues pleasure after pleasure...not knowing how to do the hard things. When God asked us to be submissive (on mission for God) to our husbands...He did not mean to abuse/domination/control/servile. He intended a partnership..and service out of LOVE not fear or punisment. "Feminine Genius" where we can flourish in our natural gifts and attribites..that is almaos impossible to develop when she must act like a man, protect, defend, provide like a man, discipline like a man, work like a man..and she learned this in a harsh broken home to be self reliant, independent etc. ....then he want soft, warm, tender, receptive love and affection? When she calls him out into maturity, responsibikity and accountability he runs off with misstress and her family..like a child to "play" family elsewhere.....Insanity.
Women have failed..in lowering thier standards and bar so low to meet them at boyhhod...rather than raisising it and expecting men to rise into masculinity. Dang, even male birds in the wild work hard to meet his mate and strive to meet her wjere shes at. I believe we have failed as women as generations of families raised broken woinded kids...with our fathers as the only example as husband..and if pathologocal? abuse? addiction, violence and abandonement is all you know...its what is married. what was modeled as normal.
MEN need to understand that YOU are the TEMPLATE for your daughter's husband. WHO do YOU want her to be with.??
Dr. Doug Weiss Ph.D as CSAT therapist affirms this...pornified men are boys in men's bodies. They are so stunted un/underdeveloped in every aspect, stuck at the AGE of thier 1st trauma...that he literally has a video out called.."When You Marry a Boy Don't Expect a Man"--- the grave, catastrophic impact this has on the kids, thier development etc is catastrophic. Essentially, it is often a boy trying to play "dad" atrying to raise kids..I will tell you my early teen son is MUCH more mature than my 60 year old ex. His capacities are MUCH more developed.
Men are meant to be the protectors and leaders of thier home. Many have gravely failed this honorable calling...and it imapcts society every day in devastating ways.
Read the extended study The Legacy of Divorce, and then get back to us. Personally, I think we need matriarchies and walking marriages so that children don't feel abandoned or disrupted. Because the isolation of the 'family unit' never really worked and has only existed for a very short time.
It works better than the alternatives.
Marriage harnesses male energies by putting them in charge; making them responsible for the outcomes.
Absent that, men would hunt, fish, (or the modern equivalent) rumble with the neighbors, do drugs, chase, girls, and swap lies about the same. Some of them _might_ play at a craft, mostly involving weapons.
If you want electric lights and running water and modern sanitation and reasonable safety in your home, you want marriage. Men won’t provide those things without it.
Men climb power poles in storms at night to put women’s lights back on. Most of men’s contributions to civilization are courtship display. What do you think will happen if it stops working?
Yes. It irritates me to no end, the feminist (and I'm female) grousing that men "don't do anything." Feminism teaches women not to appreciate all that men have done. The ingratitude is off the charts.
I suspect the effects on men are collateral damage from female intrasexual status competition.
Feminism always had a status competition component, but in the early days the push for equal rights in the public sphere was the main focus. When that was achieved, feminism got a boost in prestige. More women wanted into the movement. To justify continued activism they had to move the goal posts.
This is true of most organizations. The March of Dimes solved the Polio problem. Did they disband? Not hardly.
My mother was one of the founders of NOW. Do you understand what that was about? Equal pay for equal work. That's it. We finally can have credit cards, open a bank account, have a home loan, own property. But we still do not have "equal rights" of protection under the law. It can still be defined as man, not human.
Equal pay for equal work. Oh, and by the way, my mom believes in homemaking being a real job, motherhood being a real job. Because men do well when they are nurtured and healed, encouraged to rest and restore themselves. My ex got really sick after he abandoned me with the kids. Why? Because I took really good care of his health. He didn't appreciate the skills I used to make a family home for him and our children. I was at home with my daughter until she was 4 and I went back to college.
Bob, I agree 100%. I appreciate the hard work of men and the hard work of women as well. Both have parts to play. Life itself relies on it.
"If you want electric lights and running water and modern sanitation and reasonable safety in your home, you want marriage. Men won’t provide those things without it."
--- Men don't want electricc lights, running water and modern sanitation for themselves? Come on now. You sound like Paglia and her "without men women would still be living grass huts" schtick, but in the reverse.
Women will tell you that “men are bears with furniture.”
Men’s contributions to civilization are _mating display_.
I've lived decades without a woman (forget about multiple of them) telling me that "men are bears with furniture". I'm pretty sure that today, from you, is the first and last time I will hear it. Your idea that men would be happy living in squalor if not for women/marriage is not only dead wrong, it's an insult to men. And you don't even believe it. As evidenced below where you argue against it in your exchange with Vivian Keller when she extols the virtues of simple tribal life/subsistence living and you say the men "got bored" and started wars. Make up your mind.
Honestly I don’t necessarily want a modern civilization, I’d rather have a down to earth civilization
I disagree that we need matriarchies. Just as many broken people in women as there are in men. Core issue is the centuries-old war between men and women. No simplistic answers....but the desperate need for men and women to find a place to get along. Mean men in "patriarchy" or mean women in "matriarchy", same difference. In order to have life itself, we need men and women to cooperate. VERY difficult to do, I know this well, based on my own disasters that I write about. What is a "walking marriage"?
When mothers and daughters get along it works very well.
Vivian, I do not personally want a matriarchy nor a patriarchy. Men and women need one another. I am fully aware of the social chaos of our times. My parents went through it in the Great Depression and WW2. My Boomer generation went through the loss of cohesian with social chaos and Vietnam (my parent’s marriage fell apart at the start of my teens) and Mom died overnight and an older brother died in Vietnam. No one system works all the time. Humans are gnarly creatures, self included…and the main thing tying all together is relationship with God.
Commenting a month late, but you mention the organic obvious truth that many are missing today. We need you (women). You need us. It's God's design. Granted both genders can screw that up mightily and often do. But we need to stop figuring out which gender deserves the most blame. All are stupendous creations of God, all are capable of failing to be the people He created us to be.
What are “walking marriages”
There are some interesting documentaries about it. They are kind of like most American marriages except the man goes to the woman’s house and if things fall apart he goes back to his maternal home without any penalties or painful custody lawsuits. And without as much heartbreak or hostility. Some couples are able to maintain long term pair bonds and live in the maternal home
" Some couples are able to maintain long term pair bonds and live in the maternal home"
--- Who's maternal home - his or her's? You're saying people, both men and women, should live with their moms their whole life and then if a man marries he moves into his wife's mom's home? In India they have the "joint-family" system where brides go to live with their husband in his parent's house, thus becoming like a maid and servant to her in-laws.
Anyway I fail to see how a man leaving his wife's home and going back to live with his mom (or both parents) will lessen the heartbreak or hostility in the seperation. Children would still be without their father in the home.
They are basically female-run families in a society where men make all decisions, men handle all disputes, but women run the home and inheritance passes from a man to his sister's son.
These societies are extremely violent, and none has ever been able to successfully maintain a state in over 1,000 years. They existed across Southeast Asia and Southern and Southwestern China, but now they are quite small, mostly in pockets across Southern China and Southeast Asia. The last states run this way were over-run by Muslims. They create brittle, unstable states. Their religions varied from animist to sort-of Buddhist, but most were replaced by strict Theravada Buddhist patriarchies or Muslim patriarchies.
These societies were all EXTREMELY unstable, and marked by violence. They survive in closed off, unwelcoming places that other groups never coveted. I think Ceodes wrote a really cool article about some Indonesian examples before he wrote the Indianized States of Southeast Asia.
I think there are some people in Kerala still living like this but they are not known for violence.
I asked the same question, what are walking marriages?
So you think the Matriarchies of Southeast Asia are the answer? I think that would suit attractive men well, but how do you deal with the mass social stratification and the problem of underinvestment in children? These were crippling in matriarchies. The men who led these communities care little about their sister's sons (their heirs), and basically lived a life of warring, raping, pillaging and excess. There is a reason none of these societies thrived. They were easily subdued by patriarchal societies that were better at focusing men's energies into productive resources.
Remember that societies must find a way to channel those male energies. I am married to a Southeast Asian woman. I lived there, spent time as a monk, and i studied more of this history than your typical person, and I have never met anyone who actually knows what those societies looked like and wanted to live it. It is a world of rape, violence, extreme male behavior and a lack of intergenerational growth.
A reasonable future requires that we make some effort to develop males beyond the warrior/raider level. Monogamy is the characteristic that led to Western dominance. It is also a system that led to wealth, full bellies and safety. We would be fools to emulate a broken system. As it is, so much of our time and money is spent dealing with the men who were improperly raised in single mother homes. Having loser uncles around simply drags boys down even further.
Wow. Remember that South East Asia was devastated during WWII. Horrifically so. It can take generations for the damage to repair if it ever does. The loss of wealth is because it was stolen. Bad uncles also make bad husbands. And children raised with grandmothers are healthier and better educated. Extended families are richer than isolated ones.
Southeast Asian matriarchies collapsed centuries before WW2. That is like saying the Roman Empire collapsed because of pressure from Islam. With regards to extended families, yes, extended families are great. That said, in matriarchal societies in Southeast and East Asia, high status men had the means to live on their own. They did not live with their sister and their heirs. Only low status men did. The best modern example I can think of are poor Americans in public housing. The best role models are gone as soon as they are able. The adult men living with grandma are not the successful, high-status ones, only those who could not stand on their own.
There may be more successful examples of matriarchy outside of East and Southeast Asia. I am only familiar with the Asian examples I have experienced and studied. I can assure you that the Asian examples are not ones we would want (or that could survive anywhere but the least coveted spaces). These were not sustainable societies.
There is a sub-culture in Kerala still living like this to some extent still and I haven't heard they are more prone to violence than anyone else.
Walking marriages?
This is a translation of a concept of a few Tai (not Thai, but of a broader social group that would include Thai and Shan peoples) that were matrilineal and communal in nature. There are a few Sinicized remaining communities in the PRC, and very similar communities among Thai, Mon and a few other groups across rural Southeast Asia.
It was more popular social form long ago in the Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms of Southeast Asia, but the only ones with any staying power were quite different. The existing systems are all rural, in low-value land. They tend to bleed their best and brightest. Many people who have no idea how these societies work like to use them as an example because they have never experienced them. Muslim polygamous societies replaced many, or Theravada Budddhist communities that were more centralized with a stronger state and martial tradition. The more prominent examples became Muslim, although some of these, such as Champa, became Buddhist again after the Vietnamese genocide of the Cham (we now call Champa "Vietnam."
A good example today would be to state that we should emulate Commanche society in Texas, enslaving Mexicans and raiding towns for food and the necessities of life. The few matriarchal societies that still exist basically limp along, old ladies basically running a day care for all the people incapable of making it anywhere else. That said, the ones in China do not have it easy. No minority groups in Communist China do.
Frankly, I have no idea how so many people are aware of these communities, but have no understanding of them, or a total misconception as to how they work.
In Kerala there are some still living like this. They are not known for violence.
You really do not understand women and girls.
odd response as it’s entirely irrelevant to what she wrote
Comment on point.
Ruminating on what you wish would have happened and not accepting what has happened is a dead end that causes most of people's problems including dis-ease.
Eckhart Tolle says, the reason people suffer is because they don't accept what is and hence they are always struggling. Accept what is and make peace with it.
Life happens only in this precious moment.
Louise Hay says, "Your power is in the present moment". So naturally if you are always living in the past, playing the victim, blaming others for their bad choices, you can't be very present or powerful.
This was such an important essay.
I would implore anyone reading it to get yourself a copy of Louise Hays book, You Can Heal Your Life. Louise was so wise. Her book has helped millions of people heal. It will help you see things differently and you can begin to heal. Do it now while you are young. I didn't find it until I was 45 and dis-ease was the catalyst for my awakening.
There is so much hope and beauty to be had in this Life living in the very precious present moment. ✌️❤️
We now have generations of toxic masulinity raised on porn. It DEFORMS men through and through until full recovery and it catastrophically destroys family and society. (See dr. Omar Miealla 13 Traumas and Secret Sexual Basement. It is henious. If you don't know you don't know.
There is an objective reality of divorce court being extremely gender biased, patriarchial...based on thousands of case studies and statistics. Pathological abusers use thia to entrap partner who leave..destrying thier lives. Crime against humanity. Constitutuonal violations...and the KIDs are weaponized to hirt the aurvivor parent, financially starve etc. messinf up tje next generations. See ACE & Saunder's atudy..tjes kids loae 20 years off thier lives and live a poor quality of life.
Ppl need to wake up. We are literally destroying our CIVILIZATION..and sacrificing our children like Molch and Jezebel in the Bible!
NO kids aren't "resilient" as this brave teen shows us! they are DYING of pain because us and our failures. tjeu STUFF it down and act like everything ia Ok, or take thier lives or numb with substances and sex. Teen suicide rates are the the roof --- literally dying of pain.
Reality is, men were called to be leaders and safe and sanctuary in the home... When they fail.she cannot be fully open, receptive. Fact of nature. When we live with domineering abusers we shrink or fight back.
Adam blamed Eve. A true mark of masculinity is accoutability for thier behavior. Porn/sex addiction deform personalitoes to narcissim/APD/psychopathy..so many of us wome. are living under this reign of hell and terror with these guys..it is becoming a global
pandemic.
Really f* up part is we marry men like our dads. Fact. If he beat us we marry that.If we were starved of love we marry that. Because THAT how "love" was instilled. There are generations of ppl who grew up with in famikies of heniois swxual abuse, addictions, abise, deprivation, neglect, abandonme t..and this cause nore wounded ppl.
We are COLLECTIVELY responsible for this, for healing and changing outcomes, making it a model to healthier relationahips.
"Reality is, men were called to be leaders and safe and sanctuary in the home"
--- By whom and why?
Reality is, grown adults don't need a leader in the home. The leader of a home's children is the parents, together. But one parent doesn't need the other one to lead her or him. They are equal partners working as a team.
As for all the other stuff about the sickness of porn, young women are backing off from dating, mating and marrying so they are not subject to this b.s. like older women have been and still might be.
Who knows if those upvotes aren’t some nutty cult followers.
I think what you’re referring to with fathers leaving generations before the 60s is still part of the general trend that is less specifically about marriage and community, and more about a ongoing hollowing out of Christianity that started well before WW1. It’s a gradual shift of worldview, where both husband and wife start to no longer see the sacrifices for each other as also ultimately for God. Even if just washing the dishes, taking the bins out etc. There is a cumulative effect of this that builds healthier stronger relationships. When marriages fail it’s rarely about compatibility or what people aren’t getting out of the relationship, it’s about unhealthy modes of being that are weak at handling life's challenges.
The 60s was of course when these general trends turned into a revolution that truly messed up future generations. As someone brought up in an atheist household (yes and one with divorce) who became a Catholic later in life, I see how much children of couples with faith get in terms of community, and solid ground! I also see people of my generation who have themselves moved away from the Church, but themselves retain all the psychological benefits that they were given by their parents.
These things can take several generations to disintegrate completely.
Both my grandparents and my father's family were incredibly religious.
My father's father, who left, was very catholic. His wife more so. I have aunts that regularly volunteer to sit with the communion bread during the week and continually pray over it - even over night.
And, yes the church did cloth, educate, and feed my father. It took care of his physical needs. But it completely psychologically destroyed my grandmother (even as she kept the faith) and my father and his siblings. No one ever went after my grandfather and made him accountable. Only God knows if he ever confessed in church and what number of hail Marys he was assigned. They trashed my grandmother and her children psychologically for years. It broke her heart, and she had to accept it because there was no other man to take care of her.
I'm glad the church you are a part of is much better than that.
Unbelievable these people who think that before the 60s, men never abandoned their families. Or that religious men never did that. It happened all the damn time! All through history. He might just disappear and youd never hear from him again. And @gnoment is exactly right, back before there was any safety net, that just meant the woman and kids would almost starve. They have no answer for this at all, other than to pretend it never happened.
I think the problem is more one of over reaction. Abandonment was the exception and not the rule, in our attempts to care for the exceptions we threw out the rule that was actually beneficial to the majority. Instead of making divorce and so called independence easier for everyone we should have focused on holding those who abandoned their families accountable, the social stigma of abandoning your family should have been much higher than the social stigma of being abandoned. In the aforementioned example a man who abandoned his wife and kids and then left them to the church to care for should have experienced church discipline of a most severe kind. He should have been persona non grata socially and professionally. His family should have been supported by the community, not blamed for their father’s failures. We went from a society where a woman leaving a legitimately physically abusive man was stigmatized and seen as bad to a society where leaving a marriage to find her own happiness is something to be celebrated, consequences to her children be damned. We over corrected and created a larger problem than our initial one. We can recognize that rotten marriages existed historically while also recognizing that the vast majority of marriages that come apart today are the result of reconcilable differences and that most kids would be better off if their parents put in the hard work to improve their marriages rather than abandon them.
Well I agree with this. I was totally devastated when my parents divorced. I think the problem is that prior to the very recent past, people could actually just "disappear" and you'd never be able to find them again. Head out to the western frontier, move to a different state and change your name...it was pretty easy. Social security numbers haven't even existed for a hundred years. Even today it can be very, very hard to track down a man and force him to pay child support of he just keeps moving to different states. So yes, better enforcement mechanisms would be good (and that's not always men...on very rare occasions it's the mother who is the abandoner).
One of the reasons many favored the shutting down of mental hospitals? Was because men would stash their wives there while running around with their younger mistresses. They had a clause that the person could not leave without permission of family. And divorce was very hard back then, until they had the easy divorces in Reno that started up in the 1920's or 30's.
I think you are conflating a couple issues. Yes men having wives committed was a problem (although again a statistically insignificant problem) however that was not what led to closing down mental institutions. The mental institutions were shut down in response to the terrible conditions in several of them which was made infamous by a number of investigative journalists. They were shut down officially in 1981, well after divorce laws had changed.
Ironically enough that is another example of us over reacting. We over reacted to the horrors of a few particular institutions and instead now our deeply mentally ill are serving long prison sentences or living homeless in filth and squalor on the streets, with another large percentage suffering and making their families suffer in homes that lack the ability to give them any sort of real support or treatment.
"We over corrected and created a larger problem than our initial one."
--- Did we over correct and create a larger problem than the initial one of abandonment? I'm not so sure abandonment (or abusive marriages) were all that rare.
Yes we did. 63% of black kids grow up in a single parent household. Do you really think that 60% of black marriages in 1950 ended in abandonment or were abusive?
Yes, men left wives throughout history. They went to war, they went to sea, they died doing dirty work, they became miners, etc. Absolutely. But what feminism did was encourage splitting, absolve men of responsibility, and now we have a REAL problem.
Religion has nothing to do with marriage stability. Children need communities that are stable. Men are no longer paid enough for women to be their caregiver and homemaker anymore. BTW, the WIFE used to hold the keys and the money belt in most healthy families. Men live longer and are healthier when cared for, and in matriarchies, they live with their mothers unless there is a really strong pair bond with the 'walking marriage'. But the expectation is knowing that things shatter.
My grandmother was VERY religious and was married 5 times, and only once a widow.
“Religion has nothing to do with marriage stability.”
This is objectively false and has been studied a lot. Religious people marry more, marry younger, and divorce less.
One anecdotal example is not data. Religious people can divorce and have short bad marriages. But in general and on average, you are exactly wrong.
The younger people are when they marry the more likely they are to divorce. Want to know who doesn’t get divorced? College graduates have the highest marriage stability. And the higher the education level of the mother the higher education and success of her children. Also women who have children after the age of 35 live longer
Please where do you get your data from? Because every fact you have commented here have been wrong
In the USA at least, the demographic with the most marriage longevity are the college degreed and professionally employed.
" Religious people marry more, marry younger, and divorce less."
--- In which country?
"I think what you’re referring to with fathers leaving generations before the 60s is still part of the general trend that is less specifically about marriage and community, and more about a ongoing hollowing out of Christianity that started well before WW1"
--- Please! Churches and christian communities are world renknowned for abuse cover ups of all kind.
“Fatherhood” in its essence cannot exist with “reproductive rights” and the freedoms offered to women. In the end, marriage shouldn’t be so easy to get out of
I agree that children need stability but when divorce is too difficult women die
A plethora of women and children will be abandoned due to divorce; verily greater than women who will die due to marriage - a joke of an argument
The leading cause of unnatural death for women is their domestic partner or past partner
Women must be the safest they’ve ever been since they’re not getting married then, yeah?
Yep, but mostly we women adore the men in our lives, and we are willing to risk our lives and damage our bodies having children. Because, what women don't tell men, is that our bodies are permanently altered during delivery. We change, physically and mentally. My ex was awful about how I stopped being his best buddy. Forced me to go fishing with him three days after delivery, while I couldn't stop crying. I had 15 stitches down below and the midwife was furious. She said 6 weeks bedrest and he was to take care of me, not make me entertain him. So, for his 3 weeks of parental leave, he went off cutting wood, leaving me all alone all day and he became resentful and distant.
framing marriage as an institution someone would want to get out of but for whom it should be difficult to do so is 10/10 love love love!! really shows what normative discourse defines as heterosexuality
The fact that you phrased it “get out of” speaks volumes
The fact you said nothing of value speaks volumes
What are you alluding to here - birth control pills or abortion?
Everything that came out of women’s liberation. The “rights” of women are always against the natural order in a myriad of ways, but in its essence rights must be backed by violence - antithetical to womankind
Natural order?
Oppressed people will always strive to be free of oppression and oppressors will always strive to oppress them. If things were so healthy and happy prior to "women's liberation" nobody would have budged an inch for change. As far as birth control, male condoms were around long before female specific options. Even then, the pill was and still is mostly used by married couples to space children or women in committed long term relationships. The minority of people into casual hook ups just rely on male condoms.
As far as "backed by violence" - well sure, all laws are backed by state violence in one form or another. There are repurcussions to violating a country's laws.
Being married is not “oppression” — going through pregnancy is not “oppression” — going through puberty is not “oppression”
Having a family is an illiberal act. A family is not a democracy. Women being able to decide who gets to come in/out of the world circumvents the sovereignty of the father.
It was unpopular among most women at the time - not an organic movement.
So women are reliant upon men to use violence to protect their rights from other men using violence; ergo, women’s rights will be very short lived as politics is war by proxy and men are shifting away from liberal thought. It is hatred of men and fathers all the way down.
"Being married is not “oppression”
--- Never said it was.
"going through pregnancy is not “oppression”
--- Never said it was.
"going through puberty is not “oppression”
--- Never said it was.
"Having a family is an illiberal act."
--- Not mine.
" A family is not a democracy."
--- The family I was raised in pretty much functioned as one and we all turned out fine. We're all very close, very loving, respectful and peaceful.
" Women being able to decide who gets to come in/out of the world circumvents the sovereignty of the father."
--- Well nobody's sovereignty should be circumvented and when there's a couple both should have a say but the final decision rests with the carrier of life, there's no biological way around that. Much to the dismay of the online "manosphere" (are they still around?), the artificial wombs they dream of are a long way off, if they ever get invented and functional at all.
"So women are reliant upon men to use violence to protect their rights from other men using violence"
--- Everybody's reliant upon the state, the legal system, law enforcement to protect their rights from other people using violence.
"women’s rights will be very short lived"
--- No they won't.
"as politics is war by proxy and men are shifting away from liberal thought."
--- Some men are against people other than men (particularly men like them) having rights, but it's not most men. And women are half the population so it won't happen.
" It is hatred of men and fathers all the way down."
--- You're the only one here talking about taking people's rights away.
You think rapists should have the right to choose the mothers of their children? Sovereignty of the father?? No man should dupe or force a woman to have a child.
Marriage and family holds men back from their ambitions for enterprise and selfhood. Men have two types of children and legacy: those born of nature and those born of enterprise. It’s basic psychology. The Bible and all of western tradition speak to this.
Matriarchies are very healthy, where women stay in their mother's home, as do uncles and brothers and they have 'walking marriages'. Some are permanent, many are not, but the children are surrounded by people who love them. We don't have a culture that protects mothers and young children anymore. We used to have decent welfare programs for the first five years.
See my comment above. You won’t get much work out of the unmarried men. Uncles, too, are less motivated than fathers.
Are there any real world examples of healthy matriarchies?
Exactly!!!! Or the extremely high mental and psychological damage that matriarchy has had on the life of children?
Do you mean the people who graduated college because they had grandmothers supporting their success?
Yes. In in some remote villages and in areas of China. If you look up walking marriages
Peasant subsistence farmers.
I find it fascinating how we condemn people who live sustainably and quietly in healthy communities while we destroy the planet. I think we need to reevaluate what it means to be civilized
We are nowhere near destroying our planet. As people get beyond worrying about their next meal, they start caring about their environment. Western Europe and the USA have cleaned up a great deal in my lifetime. It wasn’t _all_ exported to the developing world. The developing world is starting to clean up too. Our biggest risk is quitting too soon.
Also, you have obviously never been a subsistence farmer.
Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless. My ex wife left me and our kids to "find herself." Her mother left her father when she was 4. Her grandmother left her grandfather. And so on. Believe it or not, women are ALSO capable of being disloyal, callous, selfish, and just generally bad people. It's a part of the human condition that we used to be able to call out as bad without coming up with ways to justify it.
I’m sorry that happened but is that really bad though?
Like if somebody feels that they have to abandon themselves to be in a relationship. Why stay?
What does that say of our society we demand that women?
We demand it of men.
>None of this works unless men find an independent path forward to understand how to invest in families, relationships, and community.
"No political message has proven to be more welcome, in countries around the world, among peoples of every race and culture, than the message that your problems are not your fault, but the fault of others — and it is they who must change, not you."
- Thomas Sowell
Parental estrangement isn't new. What's new is telling adults who experienced parental estrangement as children that their parents did nothing wrong. It's gaslighting on an international scale.
Jfc....do women like you EVER engage in self examination?
Girls and boys probably feel abandoned because they have i DEI been abandoned. Fatherless households in black community is over 80%. The fathers abandoned their children and the mothers had every data point to believe it would happen before having sex. It to mention access to an overwhelming number of contraceptives. Add that they were then abandoned by their moms who chose a career in employment over one in motherhood. Add the TV and phone being used as substitutes for physical interaction. Yea, the kids were abandoned.
Your comment is better than the article.
Motherhood is a responsibility. Fatherhood is a hobby.
Keep writing about it!
My parents divorced when I was 13. It remains the most devastating thing that has ever happened to me. I have never recovered from what my parents did. Both of my parents are dead, and I have forgiven them, but divorce for children is a primal loss. As an adult, I understand why they separated. As a child, my family and heart were broken and smashed. I am 59 years old. I have been happily married for 31 years. We have six thriving young adult children, and I still grieve the loss of my family of origin. My kids tease me when I ask if their girl/boyfriend's parents are divorced. I recently explained that I don't judge if they come from a divorced family. I expect that most, if not all, of my kids will marry someone from a broken family. But children from a divorced family carry a heavy burden, one that most teens and many young adults haven't even begun to unpack. It's an essential piece of their life to understand.
The good news is that it is possible to have a successful marriage even after coming from a broken family. I've seen it, and I've achieved it. I am a Christian and have received tremendous healing over the years from Jesus. It has also helped to read books that acknowledge the pain children of divorce experience. It is good that you are talking about it. It can be difficult to even talk about it - there is tremendous pressure on the kids to be "okay." Generally, despite the divorce, children love their parents and want to protect them from knowing the depth of the harm that occurred from their own hands. But the truth is - divorce sucks, and the children suffer because of it. My greatest joy and accomplishment is that my children will not come from a broken home. I've told our kids that happily married parents are the greatest gift we can give them. Now that they're out in the world, they see that is true.
I recommend two books: Primal Loss: The Now-Adult Children of Divorce Speak by Leila Miller and The Children of Divorce by Andrew Root. God bless you.
Life is not perfect, people are not perfect and guess what? Parents are not perfect either. It is a celebration that from your heartache you could learn and to do better. And from every parents point of view we want our children to do better than us. However, I want my child to be resilient. No matter how hard life gets with or without me, I want to know that she can look after herself mentally, emotionally and physically. I don't want my daughter go through what I did to strengthen her they way it strengthen me. I know how cruel life can be but I do not want this for my child. However, like I said before life is not perfect and I am not perfect. Having the world, your parents and life let you down is not the end of the world. Your childern don't need a perfect life they need a life they can appreciate and grow from. You did not come from a perfect life but you managed to appreciate what you got and you grew from that. That resilience is more important to pass down to your chilldern then a promise that they will have perfectly happy parents. No family is perfect. There will be hard times. Teach your childern to be appreciative of what they have even in the hard times. No one can promise you happiness not your parents or the person you are married to. You all need work together and appreciate what you have together. Divorce is a cowards solution but it is a reality of an imperfect world of imperfect people that become imperfect parents. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." You did not die from a broken home or a broken heart. You did the total opposite, you lived! And that is what you truly give to your childern that is of the most greatest value to them.
I think the word "resilient" is asked to carry a lot of weight in these discussions. I grew up in a very broken, dysfunctional home raised by a step-father (my mother's third husband) who was physically and verbally abusive (to the point law enforcement was involved). My birth father walked out on my mom when my younger sister was diagnosed with cancer. He later petitioned the court to relinquish his parental rights and we saw him only a handful of times after he left. This was back in the early 70s. It was awful. Looking at me, people would probably say I was resilient. But it was all a facade. I was scared and insecure and felt awful about myself and always, always wondered why and how my dad could just leave. Yes, I "lived." No, I didn't "die." But I would have been very happy to be far less resilient than the choices made by my parents forced me to be at too young an age. Thankfully, I married an incredible man with whom I have five children and we've been married for 33 years.
We all NEED kids to be resilient because it assuages the consciences of people who make what more and more people recognize as the devastating choice to divorce. This does not mean that there aren't some situations in which divorce is the only safe remedy for one or both parties but in many, many cases, divorce results from one person deciding they "just can't do this anymore" which can mean anything from, "we've grown apart," to "I don't want to be responsible for taking care of kids," or "I need to find myself." Again, this list is not comprehensive, but it is representative of the many reasons given in the divorces taking place in my friend and acquaintance group. Heck, some people even say, "well, the kids are all old enough and I just want to be on my own now." No one is asking parents to be perfect, but marriage and especially parenthood, asks people to be sacrificial.
Even in chill circumstances, the parents who say "kids are resilient" tend to say them to reassure other people (and themselves) that the suboptimal behavior they are currently indulging in is okay.
Resilience is just being okay with your telomeres shortening at an increased rate.
95% of the stories even your mother might have told you might have also been lies to 'villianize' your father and victimize herself.
Francis, when you have seen the court documents yourself and have had to appear in family court at the time of your father asking to relinquish parental rights, the father is doing a good job of villainizing himself. But maybe you can justify a man leaving his young family in a time of crisis. Of course my mother wasn't perfect, but to be honest, she didn't really badmouth my birth father at all except to say that she wished she could get a little more child support than $25/kid/month. I'm an adult. I get that life is complicated and people are broken. I'm only saying that kids are asked to bear the burden of adult decisions and it has an effect.
I do not know what you are trying to convince me of here? Is it that we must somehow force parents to sacrifice more and to be more resilient so their children don't have to be the ones to be resilient? Yes, most people will agree with that. However, like I said be fore life is not perfect. In an ideal world all parents would put their children's needs above their own. Their would not be any cancer, especially not in childern just maybe pedophiles would get cancer. And you and I wouldn't have had to go through the horrible things we had to go through when we were young.
No one would choose resilience over blissful ignorance on how cruel life can be. That would be madness. That is why parents can be selfish and also choose not to be resilient for their children. To overcome there pretty poo whoos and get on with life and their responsibilities to the ones who depend on them. Of course I wish I didn't have to go through what I went through. However, crying over how horrible divorce is or trying to make people perfect and to stop them doing things that I think are hurtful, harmful and selfish will leave me in pain and misery not the other way round. I will always be angry and disappointed in the ones I love because they do not meet my standards of kindness and reason. I want to ask you this,what are we to do about this divorce problem? Force people not to get a divorce make it illegal or do we teach and show resilience from our own experiences of having to be resilient? In time it will naturally create a stronger society and divorce will be less because there will be more resilient people. Crying about it constantly and blaming everyone for your mystery will only to teach and show others to do the same. We live by example it is why there is a divorce problem. People are living by the examples of others. Weakness encourages more weakness Strength encourages more strength. Let go of this hate towards divorce which gave your father the permission to run away. It is not needed anymore and it is a weakness not a strength. Your father was weak and showed you exactly what resilience did not look like, and you, inspite of the existence of divorce and the horrors it can bring, overcome it and did better. You learnt resilience from experiencing and seeing its opposite in another. This is the bitter sweet beauty of life. You have the control and capability of being resilient but you do not have the control and capability to make others perfect or make divorce disappear. Just let go of it, it's not needed and holding on to it won't change the past or better the future.
I'm not sure who you are trying to convince, either, with your response. And I don't need your unsolicited therapy advice. I'm good. I've processed my crisis-filled childhood. I certainly don't think contributing one comment to the discussion is "crying about it constantly" or "blaming everyone for your mystery" (I assume you mean misery). Similary, I don't think I argued for anyone to adopt a position of weakness or to succumb to self-pity. My only point is to be careful in opting out of responsibility by assuming kids have some underlying resilience unique to them. Some may. But a lot don't.
Those children who can't be resilient will grow up to be like your father, weak and will run from any difficulties in their life. It is a shame you have so little faith in childern and their capabilities in overcoming hard times. You have gained such wisdom in being resilient and overcoming your misfortunes. It is a shame you want to waste it on bubble wrapping your childern rather than passing that wisdom down.
This will be my final comment, but whoa, you take mind-reading, straw-manning and putting words into other people's mouths to a new level. Incredible, really.
Kathy8. Glad to see you citing Leila Miller's book. It was a real breakthrough.
FWIW: I wrote the Forward to that book! I will post it on my Substack page presently.
That is such a lovely comment.
‘If I have a daughter someday I don’t want to model for her a strong independent woman who doesn’t need a man; I want to model a strong woman who shows it’s okay to depend on someone, I feel like culturally that’s a much more important message now. It’s okay to take a risk to be with someone! To give up some of yourself to belong to something bigger!’
Absolutely wonderful article and fantastic sentiment. That is exactly what I am trying to do for my daughter.
Yes having pondered these same issues for years it’s almost as though we have to act as though we did have the supportive perfect father and brothers, and take those high expectations out into the world of how men and romantic partners will be. An almost impossible goal however. To act as though we had the role models of healthy interdependency we actually need. The independent woman narrative has been very damaging.
If you don't have healthy interdependency then you must be independent to survive.
Yes!!!!!
I mean it's not like there's never grounds for divorce/separation. Tabling the idea behind a set of conditions and timeframe would be ideal. Decades of addictions implies that the relationship has been fraught for a while, and if all other interventions have already been exhausted, then divorce/separation might be a better option than circling the drain (one engaged and supporting parent is still better than one engaged parent and one despondent parent).
"Tabling the idea behind a set of conditions and timeframe would be ideal."
--- What sort of "timeframe" and "set of conditions" are you thinking of.
Also to be noted, if people can't divorce for reasons they want to, they won't necessarily stay together. Marriages will dissolve by other means, they just won't have a formal divorce paper.
For example, with something like excess drinking, you know the point where you can instantly smell it, being able to have an intervention and then coming up with a three-month plan for recovery/rehabilitation with long-term goals and weekly targets and meetings for accountability. Obviously this can vary immensely by the type of person and their particular needs, but it's the principles of the approach that are of note here. Conflict resolution is an essential part to keeping almost any relationship going strong. Smooth sailing might be great and all during the honeymoon period, but the good weather never lasts, so being prepared to switch to the storm sails when the waters start to get rough will help you to weather the storm together, lest the waves tear you asunder.
And yes, i agree that often relationships die before the marriage certificate is ever annulled, which is I phrased it with "/separation".
I'm still shocked by how long it can sometimes take for a divorce to go through here in USA. Sometimes several years. If divorce is made anymore difficult or prolonged more than it already is, we will see even less marriages starting than we already do now. I predict more people will just opt for living together indefinitely, maybe have children together but ditch the idea of a legal marriage. Amongst those that do marry we will probably see an uptick in alternative arrangements like polyamorous "open marriage" and the like.
Curtailing divorce and access to reproductive rights will see marriage and birthrates plummet at an even faster rate than we are already seeing now.
I mean the lack of relationships amongst newer generations is certainly caused not by a lack of desire to be in a relationship, rather by the inability to close the gap between one's current situation and their goals. Like it's not that there isn't a sexual appetite amongst younger generations, it's quite the opposite, in fact their are arguably too many competitors for people's sexual attention now, especially for the youth. Ubiquitous habits amongst Gen Y and Z (and a bit of Alpha), such as online pornography consumption, something that has been tracking upwards for a while, are now starting to be supplemented with AI via the Replikas of the world. Even if it's all snake oil in the end, AI companionship does compete against human companionship. Suffice to say that more people are checking out of the dating market in favor of the increasingly flexible simulacrum.
In the same way you wouldn't expect a poor return policy to significantly affect a buyer's decision to purchase the product, you certainly wouldn't cite it as being a cause of buyer's remorse. Also, I am very skeptical about there being an noted increase in successful alternative arrangements, such as polyamorous relationships, in the future given how people are clearly still working out how to solve the two-body problem, never mind that the three-body problem, or higher orders, are far more complex to solve for, and for which a general solution doesn't even exist in physics, never mind human relationships that have far more than three variables.
What does a man do when he discovers his child isn't his?
I was raised by a man whose child I was not. I was adopted: my mother already had adopted me when my dad came along. He loved me as his own and I loved him totally in return. It’s been 15 years now since he died and it still hurts. But it’s okay. It’s just living.
He chose you. You were part of the package.
Absolutely. And set a fine example, too.
Most men love the children of the woman they are with.
Many want to. It doesn’t always work out.
A funny story I overheard at a mother's group, was a woman was talking about her husband. He was an avid skier, outdoorsy, and very different from his book worm father. After his father passed, his mother told him the truth, that his real father was conceived right before her wedding, on a skiing trip with a ski instructor/ athlete. She never regretted marrying her husband and he suspected but always loved his son who was so different from himself. She later introduced him to his real father. From what I understand, before dna testing, over 30% were step outs.
This is not a "funny story."
The father who raised him WAS his “real” father. Try using the word “biological” father instead. (Speaking as a mother of two adopted daughters. I AM their mother.)
I read something to that effect, involving impossible blood types given the father of record.
It’s not funny at all. It is human.
Did she give the man any children of his own?
The only good data is from Iceland. The bastard percentage was less than 10%.
You should be more skeptical/do some work on your BS detector. That 30% stat is false.
From what I’ve read, there was a study with early DNA testing that showed the rate varied widely by social class, with roughly 1% and 3% for upper and middle class couples. The 30% was for the lower class sample. No idea of the details/conditions of the study, how representative the sample, or whether it was taken from eg a time of war when men were away for years.
If they enter jnto the arrangement knowingly, sure.
Yes, I think that’s true. I know, however, that I could never thank him enough for his unconditional love, support and example.
Define 'most'. This is not true in my case for the step-mother or step-father.
It is hard on the children when they are in a single-family unit that is severed and then patched together with spare parts of humans who are scarred, scared, and are trying to figure each other out. That is why I now believe in extended families as long as there isn't abuse. My children were adopted by my husband, and though he grieved his loss of contact with some of his from his prior marriage, he embraced mine with compassion. (I was 19 years younger, and we met in college while getting teaching credentials) Just as his children embraced their mother's new husband. But the legacy of divorce is profound on children. There is an excellent study with that name, following people throughout their lives after parents' divorce. And then when you compound it over generations, its PTSD on steroids, basically.
You hide your assets immediately! Move that money, sell the stocks and bonds; liquidate and bury it, bro.
More to your point, a lot of single moms should absolutely model independence lol. My FIL's mom was a 60s feminist. Was NEVER without a man! And a good percentage of those men were horrible to her kids. One of those men died recently at about a 100, and my 70-year-old FIL broke down in tears at the memory of how horrible he was. This shit stays with you.
Maybe it's okay to want to depend on a man, but a revolving door of selfish men who are mean to your kids is neither good for you and nor for your kids. At that point, being single and independent isn't a fear reaction, it's quite literally an informed decision on what is best moving forward. Would it be nice to have a good man in your life? Probably, but it's risky to keep seeking this out when you are trying to create a safe stable environment for your children.
What we need are groups of strong men to force this type of man to behave correctly and hold him accountable when he does not. Honor, loyalty and virtue must be taught at an early age.
What a phenomenal piece, Freya. You have put into words what I have been feeling for 18 years. I’m 32 now, and my dad left when I was 14. As far as he is concerned, the fact that I wasn’t resilient enough to ‘bounce back’ from it meant that something is wrong with me (not him, or the situation).
The more I think about it, the more I feel that the Boomers are the real “me” generation. They were the children of the 60s and 70s who tore down everything that represented stability in society, and now they blame Millennials and Gen-Z for not being able to cope living in a world built by narcissists.
Your comment is very perceptive and 💯% true.
The relentless selfishness and narcissism of the baby boomers has been tremendously destructive to our society.
They were really crapulous, toxic grandparents, too.
I was a waitress in my late teens and early twenties, and I remember noticing that it was always the boomers who would throw a public tantrum if someone made a mistake with their order. The older generation would be too polite or embarrassed to complain at all, whereas Gen X and Y would still complain, but they’d be sheepish about it and still relatively polite in their tone. I think you can tell a lot about peoples’ character when you’re in a “low” social position. I just remember observing again and again that the rude horrible customers always came from the same generation. There was something about their sense of entitlement that always bothered me. Only now am I realising that this must be connected to the counter-culture stuff in the 60s and 70s… there was a huge emphasis on extreme hedonism, which, in my view can only lead to narcissism.
So true. The abusive behavior you occasionally witnessed in public was only a fraction of what went on at home behind closed doors.
I would hasten to add that not all Boomers are abusers, and not all Millenials/Gen Z are innocent doves. However, as a general trend, I think we can safely say that we are now reaping the harvest of what was sown by the counter-culture revolution: hedonims —→ narccisim.
I wonder why? There were some good values that came out of the young people in the '60s and early '70s like peace and love. No I'm not being snarky here. For real. Boomers are some of the most loving and open minded people I meet these days.
Hold on there, Sarah! Much of the '60s and early '70s was about peace and love. Really, I'm not trying to be sardonic or corny here. There were some good values that came out of it. I am surprised to hear boomers were the rudest customers.
I’ve shared similar observations and experiences, but now older gen x are the “boomers” in this regard. Still a different vibe of entitlement than older boomers though. More tight lipped passive aggression than public yelling.
I am a boomer and i think you are right in a way.
I found a philosophy of life that makes me very traditional and i understand the value of all the things Fraya writes so powerfully about being missing.
But many of of my generation , especially the younger boomers , entered a life of abandonment that has left latrer generations abandoned!
An extremly unpopular thing to say but i will say it anyway is , the place feminism has played in all of this.
The understanding of motherhood has become so diminished, that even the basics are being forgotten.
It breaks my heart. To be a mother is the most important job in the entire world.
I implore your generation to embrace it , to rediscover what it is to love unconditionally and selflessly.
Become the new pioneers of family and mend the world! ❤
"It breaks my heart. To be a mother is the most important job in the entire world."
--- Once one has children, parenting those children well is of course the most important job for those people, for parents. But for people who don't have kids, I don't know that tell them that it's the most important job in the world is the way to go. I mean, they will of course appreciate if their parents did a good job, and will probably be pissed if they didn't, but for them - they may not be interested in the job.
Moreover we can see which countries value parenting by their government policies towards parents such as parental leave and all that.
"To be a mother is the most important job in the entire world".
Is the "entire world" rewarding motherhood in practical ways?
I did say unconditional. There is no reward save knowing you have brought up decent human beings. I know it is such an outmoded opinion.
Incidentally i don't have children but i have ,by grace got 3 wonderful grandchildren.
All that matters is that if a woman is called to have children she knows how to be a mother.
How did you get grandkids without kids? Anyway, with the cost of living and housing and everything being what it is today, I think we are going to see only certain socio-economic classes of people having them - the rich and super rich. They won't have many. But unless something gives with the world's economic system - the middle and lower classes won't be having.
Sarah, Boomer here and what you say is not entirely true. Boomers made plenty of mistakes...we were in uncharted territory. I do NOT blame Millenials nor Gen-Z. Each and every single generation has their crosses to bear. Social stability was already unraveling before the Boomers...from the 1920s and before. No one generation is to blame, look at human history. I write in my own Stack, about the huge mistakes I myself made in the sexual revolution ( a more chaotic thing there never was) and I place the blame on myself, not on those coming up behind me.
I'll check out your Stack. I might have a romanticized version of the '60s in my head. I love the music, aesthetics, vibes and yes, the peace and love values.
Boomer Truth Regime was a disaster and the chickens are coming home to roost.
Explain. What is the Boomer Truth Regime?
Academic Agent coined it and talks about it on his YT channel. He defines it as 'the episteme under which we have been suffering since 1945. In this episteme the summum bonum, the ultimate moral good, is something like individual self-expression unmoored from societal constraint. '
I wasn't around before 1945. Was Capitalism different then? Was "rugged individualism" not an American value?
If you have time, Academic Agent's YT channel covers a lot of history that might fill in the blanks for you. I am a terrible explainer, so won't even try.
My parents divorced when I was ten and it was awful. In my teens I found religion. I decided my life would be different than my parents' lives. I was going to be romantic, not career-obsessed. I was going to get married and have a big family and be a stay-at-home mom. And I did. At 20 I married a religious boy. People said we were too young, but we had so much fun together, being poor and young together. We had a bunch of kids. We created a beautiful home. I love my life. I feel healed.
As a grandmother to both male and female Gen Zs, I was drawn to your writing awhile back. I want to understand as much as I can about the world they function in. Your perspectives resonate. My grandson is 24 and he really wants to meet a woman with whom he can build a life, but he's finding it hard to find any who want any kind if commitment. He says that so many are superficial and only want to party, which is not his thing. I have shared your article with him. It may help him understand a bit better. Freya, Thank you for offering your voice and your wisdom to our world.🙏
Your grandson in only 24 and it is rare for someone that young to be looking to marry in the west. His target demographic will be women between the ages of 20-26, right? Most women (and men) here are not looking to marry at those ages. And some women in their early to mid 20's don't desire men their own age but a little bit older. Probably if he waits until late 20s to early 30s he'll have better luck.
I'll never forget when my dad apologized to me for "breaking up our family" when my parents got divorced when I was a pre-teen. Back then, I didn't really think anything of it because I didn't think he did (and still don't), but now that I'm older (and actually in a committed relationship) I hear what he was saying; I hear the guilt, the shame, and the disappointment he had in himself for our family unit crumbling. While I never expected an apology, I have to say I love him all the more for it.
Just a simple, heartfelt apology does wonders, it really does. Great piece, Freya.
You are a very rare person to actually receive an apology. It’s highly unusual.
Refusing to acknowledge that either parent did anything wrong and, even if they did, the children aren’t entitled to have any feelings about it, is the typical default response with most divorced parents…particularly divorced baby boomers.
And I would add they expect you to be happy for THEM.
I concur. That’s pretty typical. The lack of self-awareness is STAGGERING.
This is solid. The damage to millions of people from seeing only broken relationships, then replicating that experience as young adults, is catastrophic, and potentially civilization-destroying. The instinctive response of not touching the hot stove and getting burned again is rational and understandable.
In human terms, I see no solution. It will require miracles. So, I will pray for them.
I think this “packaging” up of different generations can be divisive and unhelpful. Marriage and dependency and accepting the need of someone else has always been fraught with risk through every generation, every century. It’s the nature of life, certainly the nature of love. There has never been a time when family was totally secure. As other comments have said, in other generations you could be stuck in an abusive marriage and have no way out. That’s still the case in parts of the world and in certain religions (which can give a sense of belonging but can also create a prison of rules). We love a spouse and they might leave or die, we have a child and nature means they leave and may die. There is joy and also pain. Read Kahlil Gibran. The history of the world has been one of war- my grandparents and parents but most families through the centuries would have been torn apart by war and loss. Children orphaned, step-parents introduced not from divorce but from war. And those generations knew nothing of the “inner child” or narcissism or attachment theories. To fall in love and give love is a risk but even if you lose you will have experienced something deeper than you will experience staying on the outside or making fear rule your responses. You’re a great writer, feel the fear and do it anyway. You have more choices than the majority of women through history. Share with your generation the ways to accept uncertainty and choose to make relationships, make communities, find your own sense of belonging. It’s never been easy and you may be rejected but it’s worth it. I wish you heartfelt luck and courage that you and your peers will find a way to create love and community and the moments of happiness that you seek.
I love your incisive voice Freya! I have started recommending your Substack to parents who are looking for resources for their teen girls in navigating social media/peer pressure/relationships etc. It would be wonderful if your upcoming book came along with a guided family/group discussion appendix. The way that you approach the challenges the current generation faces is unique, and I have not come across a book or resource that speaks more clearly on these issues. Thanks for your splendid work!
I’m an adult child of divorce and I feel like only now, our pain is being acknowledged. Kids are not resilient and divorce is an evil, regardless of the circumstances of the parental separation.
Read The Legacy of Divorce. It's a longitudinal study of the children of divorce. I think the family unit idea is too small for healthy child rearing. We used to have extended families living together.
Good one. Truth is though that divorce IS evil, and so are you for pushing for it and attacking what holds humanity together. It is through marriage that a family is built, through family a neighbourhood is built, through those that villages are built, from there cities, and from there nations. You seek to burn the most beautiful thing men and women can build together.
In the eternal words of our Lord; Get behind us Satan.
Your belief system is one that gets people killed. No family exists without the support of their community. I know this personally as we are under assault because I used to be a beautiful woman married to a man 29 years older than me who adopted my children after their father abandoned us. Yes, I am stalked and harassed by people like you who judge without mercy or compassion. I stay with my kindly husband even as we are being attacked
19 years older
Life is not perfect we are all human that make mistakes. If you keep blaming others for your problems then they will never get fixed. "You may not have caused what hurt you but you are responsible for your healing"
Getting angry, and crying about bad parents will not change a thing.
Thank you Freya for putting out the right message. What's done is done. No changing that fact.
I agree with almost everything, except that getting angry and crying are normal, human reactions, and that no human being should deprive themselves, especially when it comes to crying.
Have a good cry and then move on. Go to a hill top and have good scream and then move on. But, make your screams and cries what you wake up for and you live for, then you get no sympathy from me. The misery you choose to live is for you and you alone don't bring others into it. This is coming from a person who made her anger and cries the reason to make all the ones who love her live in mystery with her. It did me no good, it did my family no good. I wasted a lot time being angry and miserable. It is only okay to cry when you know when to stop. It is only okay to be angry if it inspires you to do better. It is human but it is also inhumane to allow people to just cry and hate when it does no good and they do not know how to stop.
Wonderful piece Freya. As a father of three teenagers, I'm fascinated how cautious this generation is about relationships - almost none of my kids' friends have a boyfriend or girlfriend. Quite a relief in some ways as a parent, but you wonder where it will end. I cycled the other day past a couple of kids kissing at a bus stop and thought it was years since I'd seen that.
I believe they are afraid of being burned/outed for doing Anything. ..it will be posted on social media. Ask a girl out and she makes fun of you on tick tok..so the girls are lonely posting and the boys bury themselves in gaming…
Brilliant and searing. And I hate to say it, but what Gen Z is experiencing now started decades ago. I'm 62, and in my childhood watched TV shows of "That Girl" and "Julia," single women striking out on their own, while my father was in and out of jail and my mother in and out of the hospital. In my college years, the ubiquitous feminist slogan was "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." The big feminist question was, "Is it ok to sleep with our oppressor?" And now here I am, and yes, I do love and soothe and reparent myself, and I coach other women to do the same; and I do believe there is a place for that foundation within oneself as a basis for intimacy with others. But the cost of the systematic destruction of the family has indeed been great. Keep up the good work, Freya!
You are absolutely spot on with this, Freya. I have worked with so many young women for whom this is literally true, line by line, as you have written this. It is the tragedy we can't talk about, and we are "being kind" by blaming everyone and everything else. My father came from a broken home and had a deeply unhappy childhood. He was convinced there was a better way - and I am the lucky beneficiary. The tide can turn, if we make enough waves - and you are doing just that. Thank you.
There is a way forward, yes.
My wife and I have (and continue to) overcome this very thing with the Lord Jesus Christ.
He has brought true, permanent healing to these deep places of abandonment and trauma through His Holy Spirit and a sober look at how the dysfunctional ways in which we responded to the trauma inflicted upon us were actually more damaging than the trauma itself.
Besides the Bible, this book has been life changing for us: Transforming the Inner Man by John + Paula Sanford.
New life is possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Lord loves you, so much, and He is truly a Good Father who will never abandon you.